AACHM Oral History: Hortense Howard
Sun, 07/21/2019 - 3:30pm
When: May 2, 2019
Hortense Howard was born in Bloomington, Illinois in 1927. Soon afterwards, her family moved to Ann Arbor, where she and her sisters became known as the “Bacon Sisters” for their choral performances at sorority houses and other venues. Ms. Howard attended a music school in Detroit because she “wanted to sing like Sarah Vaughan,” and she met many African American singers while working at the Gotham Hotel. She ran her own daycare, Sitters Unlimited Family Day Care, in Ann Arbor for twenty years.
- [00:00:12.98] INTERVIEWER: First of all, I want to say thank you for agreeing to be interviewed for our living oral history project. And so I'm going to ask you a series of questions. And if you don't remember something, that's OK. Or if you need me to repeat something, that's OK. So we're going to start with part 1, which is demographics and family history. Please say and spell your name.
- [00:00:37.14] HORTENSE HOWARD: Hortense Howard. H-O-R-T-E-N-S-E, Howard, H-O-W-A-R-D.
- [00:00:52.49] INTERVIEWER: What is your date of birth, including the year?
- [00:00:55.58] HORTENSE HOWARD: April 25th, 1927.
- [00:00:59.12] INTERVIEWER: You just had a birthday. Well, happy belated birthday.
- [00:01:03.32] HORTENSE HOWARD: Thank you.
- [00:01:05.69] INTERVIEWER: How would you describe your race?
- [00:01:08.38] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, African-American.
- [00:01:11.45] INTERVIEWER: What is your religion, if any?
- [00:01:13.74] HORTENSE HOWARD: Baptist.
- [00:01:16.58] INTERVIEWER: What is the highest level of formal education you have completed?
- [00:01:21.50] HORTENSE HOWARD: I got an associates at the WCC and an undergrad at Eastern.
- [00:01:30.98] INTERVIEWER: So your additional schooling then was Eastern Michigan University?
- [00:01:34.73] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:01:37.55] INTERVIEWER: What is your marital status?
- [00:01:40.13] HORTENSE HOWARD: Widow.
- [00:01:42.62] INTERVIEWER: How many children do you have?
- [00:01:44.24] HORTENSE HOWARD: One.
- [00:01:48.08] INTERVIEWER: Male, female?
- [00:01:50.38] HORTENSE HOWARD: Male.
- [00:01:53.54] INTERVIEWER: How many siblings do you have?
- [00:01:56.06] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well I had 10, but two passed. And there are four of us living.
- [00:02:02.92] INTERVIEWER: Are they in this area?
- [00:02:04.73] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, I have a sister in California and a sister in Lansing.
- [00:02:14.24] INTERVIEWER: So what was your occupation when you were working?
- [00:02:19.88] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, I did a lot of things. I babysat, janitor work at the time, and salesperson. I worked at Jacobson's.
- [00:02:34.80] INTERVIEWER: So you were in sales at Jacobson's.
- [00:02:39.95] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:02:40.73] INTERVIEWER: I used to shop there quite a bit.
- [00:02:42.86] HORTENSE HOWARD: [LAUGHS]
- [00:02:47.36] [INAUDIBLE]
- [00:02:49.73] INTERVIEWER: At what age did you retire?
- [00:02:52.73] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, I didn't really retire because I had a daycare. And I just continued to keep some of the children coming, going. So maybe 75 or later.
- [00:03:11.96] INTERVIEWER: So tell me a little bit about the daycare.
- [00:03:14.96] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, how I started-- when I was going to Washtenaw Community College, I was going to major in library. But I met a teacher, and she was telling me about they were going to build a daycare, an addition to the school.
- [00:03:41.01] Well, I said, oh, because I had taken courses, not for daycare. So she said, I think you would do very well in that. So I had to change a lot of my courses, and I did. And I thought, I might like this. So I pursued it and got my own daycare in Ann Arbor here right on Broadway.
- [00:04:09.32] INTERVIEWER: Well, then, I'm going to ask you more about in a few minutes. So I'm going to go now to part 2, memories of childhood and youth. What was your family like when you were a child?
- [00:04:21.83] HORTENSE HOWARD: Busy, because there were eight of us, eight girls and one boy. Well, actually two boys, but they both passed. Busy, disciplined-- man, my mother was pretty strict. She had to be because she had eight girls.
- [00:04:50.38] And it was fun. We had fun. You know how large families are-- disagreements, agreements, love, tears.
- [00:05:03.21] INTERVIEWER: All of it, huh?
- [00:05:04.75] HORTENSE HOWARD: All of it. I'll have to say all of it.
- [00:05:07.69] INTERVIEWER: So there was a total of eight of you?
- [00:05:09.69] HORTENSE HOWARD: Eight of us.
- [00:05:11.68] INTERVIEWER: Same as my mother. She had eight. It was 8 of them, four boys and four girls. What sort of work did your parents do?
- [00:05:20.38] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, they were both cooks. But my father was a minister. So that's what they did. My mother cooked at a lot of the sororities here. And my dad also cooked, but he went to Chicago to study at Moody Bible Institute. And when he came back, back and forth, he also was a cook.
- [00:05:49.18] INTERVIEWER: So tell me about your father. So did he pastor his own church? And what denomination was that?
- [00:05:55.75] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, he didn't complete that. He didn't have a church, just went to school. And I don't think he completed it, but everybody knew my dad as Reverend Bacon.
- [00:06:16.75] INTERVIEWER: What is your earliest memories when you were growing up, some things that you remember right away when you were growing up?
- [00:06:23.50] HORTENSE HOWARD: Some of my memories--
- [00:06:25.48] INTERVIEWER: When you were little, growing up-- what are some of the earliest memories that you had?
- [00:06:30.46] HORTENSE HOWARD: Christmas was one of them. And my sisters, we were known as the Bacon Sisters. We sang. We used to sing a lot at the sorority houses here and in Lansing, in the metropolitan areas. We were singers. So we sang a lot. And we visited-- I had an auntie in Bloomington and an auntie in Lansing and Grand Rapids. So we would visit during the summer when school was out, sometimes.
- [00:07:07.52] INTERVIEWER: So if you were doing out all that singing, you all must have been good.
- [00:07:10.33] HORTENSE HOWARD: Pardon me.
- [00:07:11.02] INTERVIEWER: You must have been good if you were doing all that singing.
- [00:07:14.48] HORTENSE HOWARD: Ah, yes. I brought some songs and Morris Lawrence recorded them for me.
- [00:07:19.84] INTERVIEWER: Oh, wow, very good. Love to hear those sometime. What other special days or events do you remember that your family did when you were growing up? You mentioned Christmas. Were there other special events and days?
- [00:07:38.59] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, just the regular holidays. We didn't have any special days, extra special days.
- [00:07:49.19] INTERVIEWER: So tell me how the day would go on Christmas. How would you start your day and how would that go for the entire--
- [00:07:55.91] HORTENSE HOWARD: For Christmas.
- [00:07:56.59] INTERVIEWER: Yes.
- [00:07:57.40] HORTENSE HOWARD: I remember, we thought there was a Santa Claus for a long time. So some of the members of the Church would come to the back door and leave presents and fruit. And the thing that I remembered was the smell of the fruit, so nuts and the fruit. And they would bring the tree because, anyway. We would almost wait for Santa Claus to come to the back door.
- [00:08:29.38] INTERVIEWER: You'd try to wait?
- [00:08:30.80] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes. So it was interesting because, for a long time, we thought that there was a real Santa Claus. So we found out that it was one of the members from the church. And it was fun. And we made our own presents. We gave away things that we had made.
- [00:08:57.36] INTERVIEWER: That's very special to make the gifts. So what are some of the types of gifts that you made?
- [00:09:03.34] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, like little dolls, little dolls. And we would make little doll beds. And what else did we make? Just little toys, kid toys, and wrap them up in pretty bows and wait to see what was in the bows-- I mean, what was in the gift. But that was fun because we'd all wait and look and see who got the biggest, who got the best. You know how children are.
- [00:09:44.30] INTERVIEWER: So in terms of your siblings, where did you fall within the--
- [00:09:49.46] HORTENSE HOWARD: I'm the second.
- [00:09:50.57] INTERVIEWER: The second?
- [00:09:52.37] HORTENSE HOWARD: I have a sister that's older, one sister that's older. And then I'm the second child.
- [00:10:04.05] INTERVIEWER: So you said you didn't have any family created traditions, just your regular holidays. You had Christmas. Easter?
- [00:10:12.00] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, yes.
- [00:10:13.86] INTERVIEWER: Thanksgiving?
- [00:10:14.15] HORTENSE HOWARD: Easter, was just-- well, we would go and get our pieces from Sunday school and recite. That was exciting because we had to learn our pieces. But that was the extent of it. We didn't--
- [00:10:30.48] INTERVIEWER: So you had to recite on Easter Sunday?
- [00:10:33.42] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:10:34.11] INTERVIEWER: So how did you do with that?
- [00:10:36.70] HORTENSE HOWARD: I did pretty well. I had to do pretty well.
- [00:10:42.93] [LAUGHS]
- [00:10:47.37] INTERVIEWER: I'm sure you did great. So we already talked about school. We talked about the fact that you had gone to WCC and then to Eastern.
- [00:10:57.45] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:10:58.62] INTERVIEWER: So tell me again what you studied at WCC and what you studied at Eastern.
- [00:11:03.23] HORTENSE HOWARD: OK, at WCC, child psychology, psychology, music. Oh, gosh.
- [00:11:11.90] INTERVIEWER: And you don't have to name them all, but just some of them.
- [00:11:15.84] HORTENSE HOWARD: I got an associate's degree. And what else? Oh, just a child care curriculum. Right now I can't remember all of them.
- [00:11:32.16] INTERVIEWER: That's fine. You don't have to do them all, just generally. That's good. You did good. So during that time, were there sports and things or other activities that you could participate in outside of school?
- [00:11:45.29] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes, there was the Dunbar Community Center across the street from where we lived, on Fourth Avenue. And we would have a date to go and play ping pong and dance. And we had to pay ten cents--to dance.
- [00:12:03.95] INTERVIEWER: Ten cents. That was a lot then.
- [00:12:06.67] HORTENSE HOWARD: And it was very convenient for us because we lived right across the street from the Dunbar Center, right there on the corner. Are you from Ann Arbor?
- [00:12:16.41] INTERVIEWER: No, I've been here a long time, but I didn't grow up here.
- [00:12:21.25] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, OK. So my mother would though be very watchful, how close can you be to a place.
- [00:12:33.96] INTERVIEWER: So you lived directly across the street. Tell me the name of the street where you grew up that was the street you were living on at that time.
- [00:12:40.30] HORTENSE HOWARD: 502 North Fourth Avenue.
- [00:12:45.29] INTERVIEWER: In past interviews, we've talked about that area a lot and that that was predominately a black area. Was that the case when you were growing up?
- [00:12:52.91] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:12:56.27] INTERVIEWER: And so in terms of the Dunbar Center, was that predominately black youth that went to the Dunbar Center?
- [00:13:04.96] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:13:06.78] INTERVIEWER: And what did you like about the Dunbar Center?
- [00:13:09.95] HORTENSE HOWARD: I liked Mr. Williams. He was the administrator there at the time, and Mrs. Williams was her name. And he was interested in the youth. And so he would create programs for us to attend after school. They used to attend different activities, and they would send some of us to camp. And they had programs for-- and if a parents could not afford to, they would pay for some of the trips.
- [00:13:54.14] INTERVIEWER: Some of the expenses.
- [00:13:55.16] HORTENSE HOWARD: But that was fun because we looked forward to going to the Dunbar Center and singing.
- [00:14:04.55] INTERVIEWER: Do you have any pictures at all from that time?
- [00:14:07.76] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes, yes. I have a whole thing of pictures.
- [00:14:11.55] INTERVIEWER: So maybe we can look at some of those later.
- [00:14:13.70] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes, no, I don't have them with me.
- [00:14:17.23] INTERVIEWER: No, not with you. I mean later later.
- [00:14:18.35] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, yes. I have a whole picture of all of the young women in Ann Arbor. That was taken at the Dunbar Center.
- [00:14:29.73] INTERVIEWER: Oh, we definitely have to see that.
- [00:14:31.01] HORTENSE HOWARD: Beautiful, beautiful women, girls.
- [00:14:34.58] INTERVIEWER: Like yourself, huh?
- [00:14:36.05] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, I don't know about that.
- [00:14:41.21] INTERVIEWER: OK, so I'd love it see that later. We're trying to put together a digital collection of pictures. So we'll follow back up with you.
- [00:14:47.33] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, wow.
- [00:14:49.09] INTERVIEWER: So I'm going to move to another little area here. And I'm going to read. It's pretty long but then I can repeat it. You lived during the era of segregation. And so can you speak about that, during that time when you were growing up and it was segregated. We just talked about the fact that you lived in a predominately black neighborhood. You went to Dunbar Center, which was black. So talk to me a little bit about growing up during that time.
- [00:15:17.27] HORTENSE HOWARD: I don't remember anything special. I remember when President Roosevelt was elected. I remember Dwight Eisenhower. I remember hearing about them. But I don't remember really any segregation because I don't think I knew too much about even what it meant.
- [00:15:55.08] INTERVIEWER: But the fact that you were in a black neighborhood and went to Dunbar Center. So you didn't really have a chance to interact with many whites, if at all?
- [00:16:04.47] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, not even in school. We went to Jones School, which was a couple blocks up the street. But we didn't have any problems with segregation. I didn't have any problems with segregation at Jones School.
- [00:16:20.67] INTERVIEWER: So that was going to be my next question. What elementary school did you attend? And so you attended-- that was Jones?
- [00:16:26.55] HORTENSE HOWARD: Jones School.
- [00:16:28.40] INTERVIEWER: And what about high school?
- [00:16:32.61] HORTENSE HOWARD: High school-- I think high school was changed over-- I'm trying to think of the street of that high school. But I did attend high school also. And I graduated from high school. It was fun. I mean, we all had to get up and go to school.
- [00:16:57.47] INTERVIEWER: You didn't have a choice.
- [00:16:58.36] HORTENSE HOWARD: One thing I liked about the teachers is they were interested in the students then. If a child wasn't excelling, the teachers would come home, come to your home, and speak to your parents about what needed to be done.
- [00:17:19.66] INTERVIEWER: So talk to me about your teachers. Did you have any black teachers or were they mainly Caucasian? Tell me about your teachers.
- [00:17:28.26] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, I had a math teacher, Mrs. White, Mrs. Everbar, Mr. Maiby. And that's all I can remember.
- [00:17:42.94] INTERVIEWER: But that's fine. You're doing good.
- [00:17:44.20] HORTENSE HOWARD: Because my math teacher was also my music teacher at Jones School.
- [00:17:53.96] INTERVIEWER: So were they African-American? I'm going between African-America and black. Well, what were they? Were they Caucasian?
- [00:17:59.52] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, they were white.
- [00:18:01.61] INTERVIEWER: They were white, OK.
- [00:18:02.87] HORTENSE HOWARD: All of my teachers were white.
- [00:18:04.51] INTERVIEWER: So you didn't have any black teachers?
- [00:18:07.28] HORTENSE HOWARD: No.
- [00:18:09.86] INTERVIEWER: So was that through your elementary, middle, and high school, you never had a black teacher?
- [00:18:14.10] HORTENSE HOWARD: Never had a black teacher. Mrs. Willis-- no, not a teacher. Not like in a school.
- [00:18:30.23] INTERVIEWER: So in terms of people that worked in this school, did you have any blacks that were doing other types of jobs in the school, like cafeteria?
- [00:18:45.23] HORTENSE HOWARD: No.
- [00:18:46.64] INTERVIEWER: The whole staff was white?
- [00:18:48.12] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes, at Jones School. Now I don't know if there were any black custodians at the high schools. But no.
- [00:19:02.13] INTERVIEWER: Because sometimes custodians would work during the day and sometimes they'd have some in the evening. So let's talk a little bit about-- start talking about that era in restaurants and eating places. Were you all able to go out and eat in restaurants?
- [00:19:18.80] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:19:20.24] INTERVIEWER: Where they black owned or--
- [00:19:23.03] HORTENSE HOWARD: There was one black owned restaurant that I remember in Ann Arbor. As a matter of fact, the people that own just passed recently, last year I think-- Thomas-- Thompson. He had a barbecue place. But that's the only black business that I can recall.
- [00:19:49.15] INTERVIEWER: Do you remember what street that was on?
- [00:19:53.00] HORTENSE HOWARD: Fifth Avenue--
- [00:19:55.57] FEMALE SPEAKER: Around that area.
- [00:20:01.00] HORTENSE HOWARD: Right, right. Yeah, in that area, it was near Jones School. As a matter of fact, it was just right across the street from Jones School, because Kerrytown is there now.
- [00:20:16.16] INTERVIEWER: So talk to me a little bit about that area because other people we've interviewed, they've talked about that being predominantly black businesses. And that's where they would go for whatever they needed. So talk to me about, not only the restaurant, but other businesses in that Kerrytown area when you were growing up.
- [00:20:37.80] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, there actually wasn't any businesses in that area. The only area that I can recall was the barbecue business. There weren't any restaurants or any stores that were owned by black people, by African-Americans.
- [00:20:59.83] [LAUGHS]
- [00:21:00.18] INTERVIEWER: Now we're both doing the same thing. No problem. So that apparently came later because some people talk about there being a hair salon down there and--
- [00:21:16.10] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, there was-- what was that lady's name? There was one business there on Fourth avenue where a lady did hair, since you mentioned it, Sadie.
- [00:21:37.46] Sadie.
- [00:21:41.69] I'm glad you brought that up because I had forgotten.
- [00:21:44.03] INTERVIEWER: No problem.
- [00:21:45.39] HORTENSE HOWARD: I'd forgotten, yes, yes.
- [00:21:48.11] INTERVIEWER: So in terms of the family.
- [00:21:49.85] HORTENSE HOWARD: Sadie Harmon.
- [00:21:51.48] INTERVIEWER: You've got a great memory.
- [00:21:53.90] HORTENSE HOWARD: It comes to me now.
- [00:21:57.20] INTERVIEWER: So in terms of the family going out, restaurants and stuff like that, did you do any of that as a family? I know you mentioned the barbecue place. But in other interviews, people talked about, as blacks, there weren't restaurants they could really go and eat in. So do you recall that at all?
- [00:22:15.14] HORTENSE HOWARD: No. No, we didn't go out to any restaurants to eat.
- [00:22:20.01] INTERVIEWER: And that was, too, because maybe a large family or--
- [00:22:23.92] HORTENSE HOWARD: Number one.
- [00:22:26.74] INTERVIEWER: But eight kids, huh?
- [00:22:28.50] HORTENSE HOWARD: That's right. Won't see me dragging eight kids to a restaurant, sitting them down, and trying to feed them when you're on a budget, too. A budget.
- [00:22:40.29] INTERVIEWER: So did you come here to Ann Arbor or where you born here in Ann Arbor?
- [00:22:47.70] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, I was born in Bloomington, Illinois. And I came to Ann Arbor, moved to Ann Arbor. And then I did a lot of traveling.
- [00:23:02.34] INTERVIEWER: So you went to school here, though-- elementary, middle, and high school.
- [00:23:07.17] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:23:08.22] INTERVIEWER: So you've been here approximately for how many years?
- [00:23:13.68] HORTENSE HOWARD: I was here until I graduated from high school.
- [00:23:22.77] INTERVIEWER: Now we're going to move on a little bit, and we're going to talk about adulthood, marriage, and family life. So this set of questions covers a fairly long period of your life, from the time you completed your education, entered the labor force or started a family until all of your children left home and you and/or your spouse retired. So we might be talking about a stretch of time spanning as much as four decades. So when I ask these questions, you can ask me to repeat.
- [00:23:56.73] After you finished high school, where did you live?
- [00:23:59.67] HORTENSE HOWARD: I lived in Detroit. I left home and went to Detroit.
- [00:24:07.53] INTERVIEWER: So talk a little bit about that.
- [00:24:09.96] HORTENSE HOWARD: I wanted to sing like Sarah Vaughan, and there was a school in Detroit, a music school. So I pursued that. And I stayed there for about six years. And I left there, and I went to New York. And I worked in New York on Wall Street, 120 Wall Street down there by the boat area.
- [00:24:49.96] And I did a lot of-- well, I worked many places. I worked at Demery's while I was in Detroit. I worked at the Fairmont Hotel. I worked at Paradise. I was always busy working doing something because I wanted to do something.
- [00:25:11.22] INTERVIEWER: So I want to hear more about this time in New York, but I'll come back that in a second. So in Detroit, you said you went to a vocal school or a music school?
- [00:25:23.94] HORTENSE HOWARD: In Detroit, there was a music school down there on Woodward. And I attended that for a while, but then it got to be expensive because it was so much per lesson. And then I stopped that, and I worked at the Gotham Hotel. And that's where I met a lot of the celebrities all of them, Billy Eckstine--
- [00:25:55.14] INTERVIEWER: Who were some of the ones that you met?
- [00:25:57.78] HORTENSE HOWARD: Billy Eckstine, Joe Louis, Sarah Vaughan, Dinah Washington, Duke Ellington. Did I say Dinah Washington?
- [00:26:11.46] INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Do you have pictures?
- [00:26:17.09] A few?
- [00:26:19.07] Go ahead. I interrupted.
- [00:26:21.87] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, Carol, what was her name-- Carol-- I forget her last name. I have the picture of her, but I don't have any pictures of Duke Ellington.
- [00:26:36.14] INTERVIEWER: Wow. So--
- [00:26:37.23] HORTENSE HOWARD: Excuse me. And as I met them, because I also worked on the elevator, so I got to meet-- there was a Paradise Theater on Woodward. And that's where all the entertainers would come. And they would stay at the Gotham Hotel on Woodward. And I worked on the elevator and the switchboard at the Gotham Hotel. And that's how I got to meet them because that's where they stayed when they entertained at the Paradise, which was on Woodward. Boy, you're bringing back memories in my mind, bringing back things in my mind.
- [00:27:13.58] INTERVIEWER: This is the whole idea of the interview. So now I want to talk a little bit about the elevator because I know that at a point in time people operated the elevators. So that was what you did?
- [00:27:27.41] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes, and on the switchboard in the office there. I went from the elevator to the office on the switchboard.
- [00:27:37.40] INTERVIEWER: So now talk to me about New York. So how did you leave Detroit and end up in New York?
- [00:27:42.86] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, when I got married, I left Detroit. And I got married. And we moved, my husband and I, moved to New York. Boy, he had lived in New York. So he knew all about New York. I didn't. I left everything and moved to New York.
- [00:28:08.24] INTERVIEWER: And followed him?
- [00:28:09.53] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes, yes. That didn't work out too well.
- [00:28:16.70] INTERVIEWER: We'll come back to that in a minute. So what did you do in New York?
- [00:28:23.63] HORTENSE HOWARD: What did I do in New York? I worked on Wall Street. I said, I've got to do something. So I found out how to get a job. And I said, let me pursue this. And it was an opening on Wall Street, 120 Wall Street, the only colored person that ever worked there. And there were a lot of interviews and a lot of little tests that you had to take.
- [00:28:59.82] And at that time, they were doing switchboards on the computer on the table. And I passed the test, and I got the job. And I worked on Wall Street on the switchboard down there by where the boats come in.
- [00:29:20.59] INTERVIEWER: And so you were the only person of color?
- [00:29:23.24] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:29:24.50] INTERVIEWER: The whole time you were there?
- [00:29:25.85] HORTENSE HOWARD: I don't know how that happened. But it was like, here I'm in the office here and this big glass-- [GESTURES] And in front of me worked all the employees. And I had to take their calls. And I was surprised that I even got the job. But I was determined that to get the job, to get a job.
- [00:29:54.31] INTERVIEWER: Well they must have been impressed with you if they hired you.
- [00:29:58.63] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes. Now I do have a picture of me at the switchboard in New York.
- [00:30:04.85] INTERVIEWER: We need to see that too. I'll take a look at all those at some point. So very interesting. Now we're going to talk a little bit about married life. I'd like you to tell me a little bit about your married life and family life. First, tell me about your spouse. Where did you meet? Tell me what it was like when you were dating and what were your engagement and wedding like.
- [00:30:33.83] HORTENSE HOWARD: No engagement.
- [00:30:35.69] INTERVIEWER: No engagement?
- [00:30:38.09] HORTENSE HOWARD: No real wedding. What else did you ask?
- [00:30:44.53] INTERVIEWER: So I can repeat it. That's fine. First, tell me about your spouse. Tell me about, how did you meet.
- [00:30:52.38] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, how I met, how we met. There was a family in Ann Arbor that knew my ex-husband. And they introduced me to him. That's how I met him. And he went into the service and all, and he came back. And I thought he was the same person that I met in Ann Arbor, but he wasn't.
- [00:31:24.82] My marriage was not a very good marriage.
- [00:31:31.99] INTERVIEWER: That happens.
- [00:31:36.74] HORTENSE HOWARD: It ended up in divorce.
- [00:31:41.47] INTERVIEWER: But out of it, you got to New York. Out of that marriage, you got your chance to go to New York, right?
- [00:31:47.93] HORTENSE HOWARD: It was-- I don't know how to explain it. I was there in New York with him for a length of time. And then it got to be where I had to leave.
- [00:32:09.23] INTERVIEWER: To make some changes.
- [00:32:10.00] HORTENSE HOWARD: To make some changes. I'll leave it like that.
- [00:32:12.02] INTERVIEWER: OK, that's fine. So we're going to move to the rest of these here. So where are some of the personal favorite things that you like to do for fun?
- [00:32:27.80] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh my goodness, I like to do a lot of things. I like to travel.
- [00:32:30.73] INTERVIEWER: Well, tell us some of them.
- [00:32:35.15] HORTENSE HOWARD: For fun, I like to sing. I like to travel. I like to visit people in the hospital. I was the administrative assistant at the church, sang in the choir at the church.
- [00:32:49.29] INTERVIEWER: Which church was that again? Which church?
- [00:32:52.58] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, well, I was at the Methodist Church and the Baptist Church and the Methodist Church. And I liked to visit people in the hospitals. I used to visit people in the hospitals.
- [00:33:07.66] INTERVIEWER: And that's really good because sometimes, after people have been in the hospital for a long period of time, people-- don't forget about them, but they get busy and they don't always go and visit. So that's good.
- [00:33:17.57] HORTENSE HOWARD: Right, if I knew someone, I would go to the hospital. But I got that from my mother because she used to visit everybody in the hospital.
- [00:33:29.78] INTERVIEWER: OK, that's good. So tell me a little bit about your traveling. Where have you traveled to or where do you like to travel to?
- [00:33:36.29] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, I traveled to Spain. I traveled to Sweden. Spain, Sweden.
- [00:33:55.78] INTERVIEWER: Did you travel alone?
- [00:33:56.55] HORTENSE HOWARD: Israel. Jamaica, The Islands.
- [00:34:09.04] INTERVIEWER: You covered a lot of territory. Did you travel alone or did you travel with a group? Or how did you--
- [00:34:16.65] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, I belonged to the Women Aglow, and I would travel with them. And before that, there was a girl that I worked with. And she also liked to travel. So we traveled together a lot too.
- [00:34:39.48] INTERVIEWER: So of those places you named, did you have a favorite one that you traveled to?
- [00:34:44.95] HORTENSE HOWARD: Israel.
- [00:34:46.15] INTERVIEWER: So talk to me about that.
- [00:34:47.53] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, wow. Awesome. When you actually think that you might have walked where Jesus walked and to just to see-- I mean, it was just awesome. You just can't explain it. I traveled there in 2003. And it's just a spiritual thing. It's just something that you can't explain.
- [00:35:22.52] As a matter of fact, when we were traveling with our tour-- there's mountains and openings. So it went this way and I saw this cave like thing. And I went inside of that, and I thought, I wonder if Jesus walked inside of there. I was just thinking, wouldn't it be a wonderful thing.
- [00:35:49.94] INTERVIEWER: Very spiritual experience, as you said.
- [00:35:52.34] HORTENSE HOWARD: Very much so. Yes.
- [00:35:55.76] INTERVIEWER: I had someone tell me they traveled there, and they talk about it the same way.
- [00:35:59.09] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, it's just awesome. And the food also.
- [00:36:02.48] INTERVIEWER: Good?
- [00:36:05.24] HORTENSE HOWARD: They have food there that you never have seen before. What's that?
- [00:36:12.46] INTERVIEWER: So everything was safe during that travel time?
- [00:36:15.59] HORTENSE HOWARD: Everything. Our tour guide was the best. His name was Israel.
- [00:36:20.14] INTERVIEWER: Oh, wow. How big a group actually travelled?
- [00:36:25.70] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, let's see. Well from each area, the Aglow has a group on the east side and the west side. So it's a group like 170 countries. And they pick people of different groups out of-- And we traveled together. So there was a lot of us on the plane together from different areas, like Livonia or Dearborn or Detroit. And all there was a lot of women from Africa. They were all so--
- [00:37:15.08] INTERVIEWER: A very diverse group then.
- [00:37:16.54] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes, that's what she said. Very diverse.
- [00:37:21.21] INTERVIEWER: And so that was your favorite of all the places you traveled to?
- [00:37:23.63] HORTENSE HOWARD: That was the favorite place.
- [00:37:27.43] INTERVIEWER: Great. Now do you have any trip planned, coming up?
- [00:37:33.26] HORTENSE HOWARD: Not yet.
- [00:37:35.00] INTERVIEWER: Not yet. So I'm going to take us back. I'm going to leave there and go back to the United States. And I want you to think about growing up or, even as your adult life, you can think of any kind of racial incident or prejudice that you experienced.
- [00:37:52.22] HORTENSE HOWARD: I never did. I never experienced any problems with--
- [00:38:03.15] INTERVIEWER: Racism?
- [00:38:04.22] HORTENSE HOWARD: Racism.
- [00:38:05.46] INTERVIEWER: Either as a student or as an adult or working on that job where you were the only one?
- [00:38:10.57] HORTENSE HOWARD: No. I just never did. I think it's-- even if there are other nationalities, if you know how to introduce yourself, who you are and be kind and understand that they might be different and say things different, you just have to realize that it doesn't matter. It doesn't make a difference. Like, if you just don't want to just be there with that type of thing.
- [00:39:13.81] INTERVIEWER: So where you interact and handle situations?
- [00:39:17.25] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:39:19.32] INTERVIEWER: So let's talk a little bit more about work. You did talk about it for a bit. But I want you to tell me a little bit more about-- was it daycare? So give us a little more information about the daycare.
- [00:39:31.32] HORTENSE HOWARD: My daycare?
- [00:39:31.99] INTERVIEWER: Your daycare.
- [00:39:33.07] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, it was fun. I didn't have any idea being from a large family that I would want to work with children anymore. Because I took care of my baby sister and my other sister. I had to do their hair. I had to help clean them up, everything. I thought, I'm out of here. I don't want to take care of kids anymore.
- [00:40:02.63] [LAUGHS]
- [00:40:06.76] INTERVIEWER: We understand.
- [00:40:12.24] HORTENSE HOWARD: And then after the teacher at the college, she kept talking. She says, it seems like you really like to work with children. So then I said, OK. So I pursued it. You have to get your license. You had to do all that. And I did all that by myself. I realized that that's what I wanted to do.
- [00:40:39.67] And I opened my own daycare. And I worked in my daycare for almost 20 years. And I enjoyed it. And now I love children. And I mean, I'm more sensitive to children and the parents. You have to get used to the parents, too.
- [00:40:58.03] INTERVIEWER: It's true.
- [00:40:59.14] HORTENSE HOWARD: But I enjoyed that very much.
- [00:41:04.39] INTERVIEWER: So tell me the age range and what kind of activities you did with the students at your daycare.
- [00:41:10.32] HORTENSE HOWARD: At my daycare, the ages-- let's see-- from babies to-- let's see-- the oldest one was. Let's see. Rachel was four. She was four.
- [00:41:29.54] INTERVIEWER: You took babies.
- [00:41:31.68] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes. It was also a drop in. So if a parent wanted to go shopping or something like that and they just wanted to leave the baby there for just a short time, they would do it. because my daycare was right down the street from the hospital, the university hospital. So they would drop their babies off there sometimes for a couple of hours or three hours. But it was a great experience.
- [00:42:13.11] INTERVIEWER: So for 20 years, you did that?
- [00:42:14.92] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:42:18.71] INTERVIEWER: You had people working with you, obviously, right?
- [00:42:20.91] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes, oh, yes.
- [00:42:22.60] INTERVIEWER: So you had about how many people working with you on any given day? How many people worked with you on a daily basis?
- [00:42:29.89] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, let's see. Carol McMillan-- three.
- [00:42:39.57] INTERVIEWER: Three?
- [00:42:40.09] HORTENSE HOWARD: Three. Audrey Mulligan.
- [00:42:45.47] INTERVIEWER: So the parents would bring the kids, the babies. And for the older ones, what kind of activities did you do with them?
- [00:42:53.72] HORTENSE HOWARD: The older? Well, we had different games that we had for them. We always had something for them to do. I'm trying to go back on it. We would take them for walks. And we would have school things-- books and toys and puzzles and reading, the natural things that they would do if they were in regular school age, and lunches.
- [00:43:37.64] INTERVIEWER: So you mentioned several different things as you did for a career. And so what did you value most about what you did for a living?
- [00:43:48.62] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, I guess, when you come from a large family, you want to get out and do-- you know. So I did a lot of things. I wanted to know within myself what I wanted to do. So I tried a lot of things. But I valued the fact that I went back to college when I was 43.
- [00:44:18.29] INTERVIEWER: That's great.
- [00:44:20.63] HORTENSE HOWARD: With honors.
- [00:44:23.09] INTERVIEWER: Congratulations.
- [00:44:24.62] HORTENSE HOWARD: And just doing things for other people, working in stores. But most of all, I think what I liked about myself is that I got in touch with myself. I got to know that I mattered. Coming from a large family, you don't know whether you really matter. You do, but you don't.
- [00:45:01.45] INTERVIEWER: You don't, right.
- [00:45:03.61] HORTENSE HOWARD: So I thought, well, I'm here for something other than combing my sisters' hair and cleaning up the house and doing dishes. So I said, well, I know. And then I started to sing. I used to sing here on the campuses even. And I was proud of myself. And I'm a composer. I write music. And I wrote poems.
- [00:45:40.01] And when I was going to WCC, I met Morris Lawrence.
- [00:45:48.19] INTERVIEWER: Oh, Morris.
- [00:45:49.54] HORTENSE HOWARD: And I was just so attracted to him because his music. So I wrote some songs. And I thought, I wonder if he'll listen to the songs. So I got up the nerve to ask him when I wrote these songs. I said, can you record these songs. And I went up to him. He says, why sure. So he had a little recording studio up there on Main Street and went up there and he recorded my songs for me. And I was proud of that.
- [00:46:26.65] Well, I knew that that type of thing was inside of me, but I didn't know how to get it out at that particular time.
- [00:46:34.57] INTERVIEWER: You were trying to get it out, huh?
- [00:46:35.77] HORTENSE HOWARD: I was trying to get it out. Because I had the confidence, but not with someone like him. People loved him. People just adored him.
- [00:46:48.55] INTERVIEWER: It's true.
- [00:46:49.36] HORTENSE HOWARD: He's a beautiful person. And right now one of the groups that I belong to, Women Aglow, we meet there at the Washtenaw Community College every third Thursday of the month in the Morris Lawrence Building.
- [00:47:10.84] INTERVIEWER: You'd just meet to stay in touch or was there a topic or-- is there something you'd discuss or you'd just meet to socialize?
- [00:47:19.75] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, the Aglow, it's a group, group of women that-- well, they're international. So we meet at the college. They come from different areas-- southeast Michigan, Livonia.
- [00:47:47.78] INTERVIEWER: And so once you get together, is it lunch or is it a lunch and a speaker or are you just socializing? What exactly are you doing?
- [00:47:55.96] HORTENSE HOWARD: We have a president and a vice president in RP and all that. And she invites speakers to come in to speak. And we have refreshments, and we have different people to come in and speak from different places.
- [00:48:20.56] INTERVIEWER: It sounds very interesting.
- [00:48:22.33] HORTENSE HOWARD: It is. Oh, we have a great time.
- [00:48:25.84] INTERVIEWER: A great time.
- [00:48:26.65] HORTENSE HOWARD: And we also meet at Brookdale. It's a nursing home here on Platt and--
- [00:48:40.91] INTERVIEWER: That's fine. So what do you do there?
- [00:48:43.97] HORTENSE HOWARD: We meet as a group, an Aglow group. And we speak to the people that are in the facility. And we pray for them. We're there for them. I'll say that. And they enjoy us coming in and just-- and we're the game changers. That's what we do. They're there. I hope I'm making myself clear here. Everything is rattling through my mind here.
- [00:49:27.31] INTERVIEWER: You doing great. So when thinking back on your working adult life, what important social or historical events were taking place at that time? And how did they personally affect you and your family? You mentioned earlier, you mentioned Roosevelt and you mentioned Dwight D. Eisenhower. Were there other things that were happening historically that impacted you personally or your family?
- [00:49:57.03] HORTENSE HOWARD: Pearl Harbor, I remember that very well. I don't know how it affected me. I guess I was too young. But I remember because in terms of Dwight Eisenhower-- I remember something happened and I wrote up in my English class-- I wrote a letter, something, talking about it.
- [00:50:29.05] But I don't really remember much about it except for the names. I remember Roosevelt very well because I remember them saying, he won, he won. But in terms of the depth of what was really going on at that time, I just remember the names but not really the incidents, not really totally what was really going on in the--
- [00:51:02.44] INTERVIEWER: What about during the Civil Rights Movement? What do you remember about that, Martin Luther King, and some of the other leaders?
- [00:51:08.82] HORTENSE HOWARD: King. Oh, well, he was the most, the best, very proud of him, like we all are. And too bad about the way he had to go. But I think he took a great stand for what he believed in. And I think he left a great mark for us.
- [00:51:40.60] INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have an opportunity to go to any of his-- when he was speaking or a chance to meet him at all?
- [00:51:47.80] HORTENSE HOWARD: No, just listening to him on the radio and watching him on the television. That's as far as I go.
- [00:51:59.62] INTERVIEWER: So I'm going to continue with this line of thinking. Well, first, I guess I want to go back to family because you mentioned earlier that you had one child.
- [00:52:09.16] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:52:09.85] INTERVIEWER: So you want to talk a little bit about that? Boy, girl.
- [00:52:13.75] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, a boy. And everybody knows Albert Howard. He's a singer. He was in the Desert Storm war. And he sang with them. And he was a great child. He's married now. He's got six boys and two girls.
- [00:52:39.10] INTERVIEWER: So you've got eight grandchildren, huh?
- [00:52:40.81] HORTENSE HOWARD: I have eight grandchildren.
- [00:52:42.47] [LAUGHS]
- [00:52:44.94] I love all of them dearly. And I was married five years before I had him. And so I was very proud of that.
- [00:52:58.72] INTERVIEWER: Very happy when he arrived.
- [00:53:01.23] HORTENSE HOWARD: That he arrived, yes. And if you would mention Albert Howard's name in Ann Arbor, everybody would know him.
- [00:53:09.37] INTERVIEWER: I know him.
- [00:53:11.62] HORTENSE HOWARD: Oh, you know him?
- [00:53:12.34] INTERVIEWER: I do know him. So very good. Now tell me a little bit about your grandchildren.
- [00:53:19.48] HORTENSE HOWARD: My grandchildren?
- [00:53:20.71] INTERVIEWER: Yes.
- [00:53:21.22] HORTENSE HOWARD: Let's see. My granddaughter graduated last year. They live in California.
- [00:53:29.75] INTERVIEWER: Oh, they're in California now?
- [00:53:30.97] HORTENSE HOWARD: They live in California. She came and lived with me, and she graduated from WCC. And she went back to California. And the other boys, they're in college. I think they're almost out now-- James, Paul. Let's see-- Paul, James. But they're busy going to college.
- [00:53:59.95] INTERVIEWER: Well, that was nice that she came and stayed with you for a couple of years.
- [00:54:03.70] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:54:04.77] INTERVIEWER: And that went well?
- [00:54:06.52] HORTENSE HOWARD: It went very well, very well.
- [00:54:10.44] INTERVIEWER: So you probably miss her now?
- [00:54:11.98] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes, because she's only been gone two weeks.
- [00:54:14.87] INTERVIEWER: Oh, wow.
- [00:54:16.15] [LAUGHS]
- [00:54:18.56] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes. She was anxious to get back home to see her brothers, her family. But we did go back-- let's see. We did go back. Something happened. Something came up that-- oh, she went back to visit her family, I think, while she was here once.
- [00:54:46.75] INTERVIEWER: Once, OK. And we're going to go on to continue with historical, go back to historical and social events. I just thought about going back to ask you about your children or your child. When thinking back over your entire life, what are you most proud of?
- [00:55:07.09] HORTENSE HOWARD: That I lived to be 92 years old.
- [00:55:09.83] INTERVIEWER: Are you 92?
- [00:55:11.18] HORTENSE HOWARD: Yes.
- [00:55:12.25] INTERVIEWER: Oh, congratulations.
- [00:55:14.37] HORTENSE HOWARD: Just April 25th.
- [00:55:17.35] INTERVIEWER: That's the same birthday as a friend of mine.
- [00:55:19.46] HORTENSE HOWARD: Really?
- [00:55:20.15] INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm.
- [00:55:20.78] HORTENSE HOWARD: And that I pursued a purpose. As you live, you don't even think of how old you're getting. And I'd said, oh gee whiz, I'm 50, 60. How did I get to be 75? How did I get to be 85? What happened? But I know it was the grace of God that carried me over all those times. But you just don't realize it until you start thinking. You didn't do this. It was the grace of God that carried you through.
- [00:56:00.63] INTERVIEWER: It's true.
- [00:56:02.35] HORTENSE HOWARD: And I'm proud that I did-- I'm sure that there's more for me to do. But I'm glad that I did something in my life that I can be proud of. I went back to college. I've always wanted to do-- I said God has put me here to do something. And I'm still here. So I'm going to keep doing something.
- [00:56:28.73] INTERVIEWER: That's good.
- [00:56:30.18] HORTENSE HOWARD: So that's what I've done. And I've got to take care of myself. I have my days, like we all do. But I basically realized just how great God is and that He has me here for a purpose. And I'm happy about that.
- [00:56:51.35] And I've got a family.
- [00:56:53.34] INTERVIEWER: That loves you.
- [00:56:54.73] HORTENSE HOWARD: That loves me. And I have mostly friends. I don't meet any enemies hardly.
- [00:57:05.77] INTERVIEWER: That's wonderful. My mom is 92 as well.
- [00:57:11.12] HORTENSE HOWARD: God bless her.
- [00:57:12.05] INTERVIEWER: I'll tell about this interview when I-- I talk to her every day. So what would you say has changed the most from the time you were young to now?
- [00:57:28.73] HORTENSE HOWARD: Technology, number one. And I've been just thinking about how-- I think about our youth, how they don't have a sense of value on seniors or life. Some of them just don't have good mentors. They don't come from homes where their parents are interested enough to teach them the way to go, because they're busy doing their thing.
- [00:58:07.48] But I mean, as we see it now, that's one of the reasons why-- it's because maybe they just haven't been taught. And with all these, life, they don't value life and-- with drugs. And we didn't have any of that when I was coming up in and the disrespect for human life. They don't really understand that they're here for a purpose. Some of them do, and some of them don't.
- [00:58:41.61] But they're disrespectful for the elderly, and they don't set goals and purposes. A lot of them do, and a lot of them don't. And they don't like to pursue-- the reason why they're here is there's something for them to do. There's a reason for them being here. But a lot of them don't think through, and they don't think that particular thing through.
- [00:59:13.26] INTERVIEWER: And that leads right to my next question. What advice would you give to the younger generation?
- [00:59:21.62] HORTENSE HOWARD: To just set a goal, set goals. And they don't really know their purpose, but they should ask the Holy Spirit. What am I here for? What can I do to make this a better world? I would be telling them just to be obedient and be respectable and realize that there is something that they can do. There's always something that they can do better. And if they don't know, ask somebody and want to make this a better world.
- [01:00:16.94] INTERVIEWER: That would be some good advice.
- [01:00:18.39] HORTENSE HOWARD: I would tell them-- I said, this is a beautiful world. And God has put you here for a reason. So if you're trying to find out that reason, sure, you're going to make mistakes and everybody does. But just think, I'm here for something, for a reason. I would be telling them that and most important to be obedient, respectable--
- [01:00:47.29] INTERVIEWER: Good advice
- [01:00:47.74] HORTENSE HOWARD: --to all mankind. You learn how to be responsible.
- [01:00:53.84] INTERVIEWER: Very good. So I have a couple more questions. One is, tell me your thoughts, or your initial thoughts, when we elected our first African-American president.
- [01:01:04.92] HORTENSE HOWARD: When we first got--
- [01:01:06.23] INTERVIEWER: When we elected him. What was your thoughts? How were you feeling about that?
- [01:01:09.09] HORTENSE HOWARD: How do I feel about it? I felt really great about it because I knew that there had-- I don't think there had ever been another black president. No, I was as proud as most of us were by him becoming the first black president, African-American president. And he stayed in there quite some time.
- [01:01:36.59] INTERVIEWER: Two terms.
- [01:01:37.41] HORTENSE HOWARD: And he was very well supported. And it was a landmark.
- [01:01:48.97] INTERVIEWER: Now I'm going to give you an opportunity to see if there's any final things that you want to share or final sayings that you want to leave us with before we wrap up the interview, anything you want to share that you haven't shared or some final remarks or some saying you want to leave us with?
- [01:02:10.28] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, I think it's-- thank you for asking me, number one. I was surprised.
- [01:02:18.81] INTERVIEWER: And it's been my pleasure.
- [01:02:20.84] HORTENSE HOWARD: Thank you. And I'm glad that I wasn't as nervous as I thought I would be.
- [01:02:30.09] INTERVIEWER: I told you that. So anything that you would want to share that you didn't share, you want to leave us with? Or you don't have to. But if you want to have something.
- [01:02:42.35] HORTENSE HOWARD: Well, I'm just glad that I did come to the fact that I did have a purpose and that I did know that God is real. And today is prayer day, prayer week, too, also. And I think I've lived a pretty happy life. I've had my--
- [01:03:19.52] INTERVIEWER: Moments?
- [01:03:20.64] HORTENSE HOWARD: Moments, yes. But I think God has been good to me. And I'm happy about that.
- [01:03:28.68] INTERVIEWER: That's great. So I just want to say thank you on behalf of the African-American Cultural and Historical Museum for doing this interview. And I really meant it when I said it's been my pleasure to do this interview. So thank you very much.
- [01:03:43.52] HORTENSE HOWARD: And thank you for asking.
May 2, 2019
Copyright: Creative Commons (Attribution, Non-Commercial, Share-alike)
Rights Held by: Ann Arbor District Library
Moody Bible Institute
Washtenaw Community College
Eastern Michigan University
Dunbar Community Center
Jones Elementary School
DeLong's Bar-B-Q Pit
Black American Businesses
Sadie's Beauty Shop
Black American Singers
Sitters Unlimited Family Day Care
Race & Ethnicity
AACHM Living Oral History
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Morris J. Lawrence Jr.
Douglas E. H. Williams
Catharine Roberts Williams
Martin Luther King Jr.