Sesquicentennial Interview: Fred Looker

Thu, 11/07/2024 - 5:16pm

When: 1974

This interview was conducted in 1974 as part of the I Remember When television series produced by the Ann Arbor Public Library.

Transcript

• [00:00:11] CATHERINE ANDERSON: When were you City Clerk?
• [00:00:14] FRED LOOKER: From 1951 to 65.
• [00:00:23] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What exactly did your job entail, and how did you work with the city?
• [00:00:28] FRED LOOKER: Well, at that time, the city clerk was the purchasing agent. He was the chief election official, which the present city clerk is. He took care of all the city's papers and more or less of an archivist on that stuff. Took care of all the counsel proceedings and having them printed and distributed, and at that time, as is now, I think, one of the most time consuming jobs is elections, even in those days.
• [00:01:17] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What was your job during the elections? You said that during election was the most time consuming job, or?
• [00:01:26] FRED LOOKER: Yes. Of course, at that time, we didn't have so many precincts, but you had to assemble enough election workers to handle all of the precincts, and before that, you had to order all the printing and know what you wanted in ballots and absentee ballots and paper ballots. At that time, we didn't have machines. Well, that was when I was deputy. But before I became clerk, we did get machines. I would have to say that we handled the elections by voting machines. But that also entailed the printing of all the absentee ballots. Then we had to get the returns, the same as they're doing now.
• [00:02:25] CATHERINE ANDERSON: You were deputy city clerk before you were the city clerk? How many years were you with the city for that?
• [00:02:36] FRED LOOKER: Nine years.
• [00:02:37] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Had you been involved with, like politics before you became deputy city clerk? Were you involved with the government?
• [00:02:44] FRED LOOKER: Well, before I was city clerk, I was Deputy City treasurer from 23 to 29. No. It was an appointed job, I've always been one political party, but the person that appointed me to the job was of the other political party. In fact, I might say Mr. Staebler's father.
• [00:03:18] CATHERINE ANDERSON: He had appointed you?
• [00:03:19] FRED LOOKER: Mmmh.
• [00:03:19] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Was he mayor at the time or he was treasurer?
• [00:03:26] FRED LOOKER: Yes. He was mayor at the time.
• [00:03:28] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What do you remember most about Mr. Staebler?
• [00:03:33] FRED LOOKER: I don't remember too much about him other than he was an Ann Arbor businessman, had a very nice coal and business here in Ann Arbor and he was very popular mayor.
• [00:03:54] CATHERINE ANDERSON: We've seen a lot of mayors come and go in city politics. What are some of your memories or opinions of the politics as you've seen it grow in the city from the mayor's position?
• [00:04:14] FRED LOOKER: The mayor has always been more or less of a figurehead. I think the most outstanding one was William E. Brown jr. He did an awful lot for the city. In fact, all of them did what they could, but I think some of the things that were accomplished during his term as mayor was more outstanding than some of the others. Whether it was their fault or not, I don't know. It was just a matter of circumstances. He had to be on the job. Happened to be on the job when the thing turned up.
• [00:04:54] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What turned up? What are you referring to?
• [00:05:01] FRED LOOKER: I don't exactly remember any outstanding thing that turned up that but he was a very forceful mayor and a lot was accomplished during his time.
• [00:05:16] CATHERINE ANDERSON: How about the councilman? When you were city clerk, you said you interacted and had to print up the council meetings and take care of that business and so forth. Has the council changed at all in recent years, the structure?
• [00:05:33] FRED LOOKER: Well, yes, it's changed with a new charter. As far as the council people are concerned, I don't think they have changed any. We may disagree with some of their thinkings, but I sincerely hope they're doing it in the best interests of the people that elected them. I can see no change in the council people, as far as their sincerity is concerned.
• [00:06:07] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What do you remember some of the, maybe the best pieces of council business and city ordinances that came about while you worked for the city?
• [00:06:20] FRED LOOKER: Well, I think the most important change was a new charter. Possibly the controversy over urban renewal, when Mayor Creal was in office. Well, any city job, no matter what it is, is controversial. You can't please all of the people all of the time, so no matter what decision they made, it was wrong. In fact, as one of the judges said, one mean thing about his job, he was always 50% wrong. I think a mayor is about a long way with his decisions, 50% of the people will be on his side and the other people will be against him. I don't care what you get into in the politics or in controversy.
• [00:07:22] CATHERINE ANDERSON: You had lived here for quite a long while and knew people that had been involved even before you were, I'm sure, in your job, some of the older people that were working. Who were some of the key figures and maybe the more exciting figures in Ann Arbor politics?
• [00:07:45] FRED LOOKER: I think possibly Judge Newkirk. Mr. Henderson, that was mayor, William Dawson, that was on the police commission. They were all businessmen, all Ann Arbor businessmen, all of them. I can't pick out any single one. They were all doing the best they thought they could anyway.
• [00:08:15] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Can you remember anything particular about any of them? Maybe a certain way that they were forceful or maybe an incident which showed what areas the mayor or the judge were interested in.
• [00:08:33] FRED LOOKER: Not off hand, no, I can't think of anything outstanding.
• [00:08:38] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Can you remember perhaps any things, like did the city change a lot in terms of parks and recreation or in terms of some of the treatment of the public schools or can you remember the controversies that may have been occurred, or that were occurring when you were city clerk when you were working for the city?
• [00:09:08] FRED LOOKER: Well, the city is continuously growing. In fact, it was growing in those days. You can tell that by the census readings and the number of precincts for voting. I can't see that there was really any radical difference now than there was in those days because it's all of a matter of growth, the schools are growing, the number of pupils in attendance at the schools go up with the population. It's doing that at the present time.
• [00:09:46] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What were some of the controversies though? Can you remember any big public opinion being divided and really big elections where there was a real question to decide?
• [00:09:57] FRED LOOKER: Well, one of them I would judge was a city charter. There was a lot of people against the changing the charter.
• [00:10:07] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Could you just describe more what the charter did, and why people were for it and why they were against it?
• [00:10:15] FRED LOOKER: Well, it changed the number of wards in the city from seven to five, which would [LAUGHTER] eliminate a few politicians most likely by not having so many councilmen and Alderman, which they would be against. It also opened the avenue for a city manager or an administrator, as he were called. There was controversy as to whether we needed that or whether we didn't need that. I think one of the greatest arguments was over urban renewal when Mr. Creal was mayor. There's a lot of people for it, a lot of people against it. We used to have public hearings. Well, we had public hearings on the charter too, those are the two things most outstanding that I can think of right now.
• [00:11:19] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What happened with the urban renewal proposals?
• [00:11:21] FRED LOOKER: Mr. Creal turned it down.
• [00:11:25] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Why did he do that?
• [00:11:26] FRED LOOKER: Well, he couldn't see it was going to be of any benefit to the city at large. The majority of citizens, he couldn't see that they were going to be benefited in any way by it. A lot of people thought it was something for nothing, and he realized whatever you got for free, you're going to pay for eventually. That line of reasoning. He was not too anxious to have it passed, and it didn't pass.
• [00:12:03] CATHERINE ANDERSON: You were working for the city since the 1920s. Is this what you were saying?
• [00:12:07] FRED LOOKER: Right.
• [00:12:08] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Then you were working for the city right through the depression and some of the New Deal legislation that came about. Did this affect the city here?
• [00:12:19] FRED LOOKER: Yes. I think the moratorium on taxes was the worst thing. At that time I was in the treasurer's office. They gave him a chance to pay him in tenths or extended their payments over ten years. Talking about extending the payments, I think one of the amusing things that happened that Mr. Verner was a city treasurer, and he advocated an installment payment of taxes like Christmas Club, so that when you had deposited at tax time, you'd have it right there to pay your taxes. It wasn't very popular. They thought he meant that they was going to give him another year to pay him in installments, so that fell through.
• [00:13:14] CATHERINE ANDERSON: How about were there any public works like that the city sponsored to try to help unemployment in the city during the depression?
• [00:13:25] FRED LOOKER: Well, that's mostly what it was, public works, different facets of that public works job. They were hiring people, yes.
• [00:13:38] CATHERINE ANDERSON: For doing what kinds of jobs?
• [00:13:40] FRED LOOKER: I think if I remember rightly, that was when the big sewer was put down to where the sewage plant is now. In fact, the sewage plant was built somewhat during some of that time.
• [00:14:01] CATHERINE ANDERSON: How did the depression hit Ann Arbor? I'm from Detroit, and so I'm familiar with stories about, my father has about Detroit depression times, but how bad was the depression in Ann Arbor and how did it hit the people?
• [00:14:16] FRED LOOKER: I don't think Ann Arbor was affected as badly. But that time, it was strictly a little college town. Well, you couldn't compare it with Detroit as an industrial city. No. I don't think it affected us too badly. Well we knew there was a depression. There was no doubt about that, because we had a welfare load that had to be taken care of, and the city had a commissary, where they could buy their stuff for cheap or were given I don't know how they dispensed it. It was whether it was a stamp business or how they did it in those days. They had a commissary where they handled all that stuff for the indigent people.
• [00:15:07] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Who was the mayor at that time during the Depression? Do you remember?
• [00:15:15] FRED LOOKER: No, I don't.
• [00:15:17] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Do you think that growing?
• [00:15:19] FRED LOOKER: Very likely it was Mayor Staebler, but I'm not sure.
• [00:15:22] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Do you think going from a small college town to a large town like it is now has really changed city politics?
• [00:15:31] FRED LOOKER: Definitely. Yes, but that's not the fault of the city. It's the fault of our legislature. Changing the election laws, who's going to vote and who isn't going to vote. When I was in charge of elections and registration, if you came here to go to school, you were a student. You voted in your hometown. But now the legislature has changed it, so we have the college vote here.
• [00:16:05] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Back when we didn't have the electric voting machines, was that a real difficulty?
• [00:16:11] FRED LOOKER: No. The automatic voting machine simplified it. As now you have the trouble with people nullifying their ballots by maybe voting for candidates in both parties or voting with the check mark, which with the voting machine, the advent of the voting machine, that became impossible, because if you voted for one party, you couldn't vote for the other without knowingly doing it. But we still had the trouble with the absentee ballots being wrongly marked and identifying marks on them and one thing or another, that they were thrown out by the election inspectors [NOISE]
• [00:17:08] CATHERINE ANDERSON: The old ward buildings have changed too, haven't they?
• [00:17:11] FRED LOOKER: Yes. [NOISE]
• [00:17:17] FRED LOOKER: Yes, a lot of them have been eliminated, and a lot of them have been taken on. In fact, I've been away from there ten years, and I'm not familiar where they vote now. The first ward used to vote in the City Hall, and the second ward used to vote down on Ashley Street. The third ward there was a little place that's still down there on Miller Avenue. The fourth ward was the armory. The Fifth ward was on Pontiac Street, and the sixth ward had a little building on Forest Avenue that was obtained by exchanging land with the university for the I think it was extension of Washtenaw Avenue or Geddes Avenue of those streets in there. The seventh ward was in the Burns Park school, and now they're all over the place. They're in those club rooms in certain subdivisions, and they're in some of the university buildings, and I forget how many I think he's got 65 precincts now. I believe when I left that, it was only 23, so you can tell how it's grown in the last ten years.
• [00:19:00] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Were there ever any types of problems with, ballot counting or people rigging the ballot boxes or trying to do that?
• [00:19:14] FRED LOOKER: No, you were talking about any amusing anecdote. I remember the first time the voting machines were used. I went down to the polling place at the armory, the fourth ward, and I could see a pair of feet in under the curtains there, and I could hear a machine being run. I said, "What goes on there?" I won't mention the name. He says, Mr. So and So. I was just seeing how the machines run. He said, I said, what are you going to do with all the votes he's cast on there? We never thought of that, so we had to void the votes that were on that one machine for that day, but he got his practice in anyway.
• [00:20:10] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What party are you with? Did you ally yourself with one?
• [00:20:17] FRED LOOKER: I work as a member of the Republican Party on the Board of County Canvassers.
• [00:20:24] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Were you ever involved with the county meetings to nominate people for the mayor's job and other positions?
• [00:20:33] FRED LOOKER: No.
• [00:20:34] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What was your involvement with the party?
• [00:20:38] FRED LOOKER: Well, it was usually an appointed job. It was an appointed job, and appointed by the mayor of approval by council, so you could have been in some cities other than Ann Arbor, a victim of political change, but I stuck it out all those years. It didn't make any difference whether it was Republican mayor or Democrat mayor.
• [00:21:12] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Why did you go into public service? Why did you want to go into working with city government?
• [00:21:25] FRED LOOKER: Maybe for financial reasons [LAUGHTER]. In all goes back [LAUGHTER] till when I got out of the army. I thought it was exceptionally tough, so I hunted up a job with the sheriff. The sheriff happened to be elected mayor, so when he got to be mayor, he had me come up to the City Hall with him. Although we were not of the same political parties, but that's how I got up there from my start with the county as a deputy sheriff.
• [00:22:11] CATHERINE ANDERSON: You went up to City Hall in what year then 19?
• [00:22:20] FRED LOOKER: 1929.
• [00:22:21] CATHERINE ANDERSON: When you walked into that City Hall for the first time as your job, what were your impressions of city government and how it was run? Can you remember back to how you looked at it when you first got in?
• [00:22:40] FRED LOOKER: No, that is only is a job to be done I know means of making a living.
• [00:22:48] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Who was the sheriff that was elected mayor?
• [00:22:50] FRED LOOKER: Ernst Wurster.
• [00:22:53] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Did you help in campaigning?
• [00:22:57] FRED LOOKER: No, I don't remember.
• [00:23:00] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What was he like as a mayor?
• [00:23:02] FRED LOOKER: Very good. Businessman. He was a Blacksmith by trade, and he had a store down on Fourth Avenue, I believe, yes. I think he has some surplus army stuff he used to sell, but mostly hardware and material pertaining to Blacksmith trade.
• [00:23:28] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Was it difficult for people in those days to maintain to keep earning a living through politics? By that, I mean I know now even the mayor's position is only for $3,000 since it's considered to be part time. Was it difficult for a man running for mayor to do that financially?
• [00:23:48] FRED LOOKER: I don't think due to the fact that there was no salary involved, that you could call a salary. I don't think that entered into it at all. They were all people that had the love of the city at heart. They wanted to do something to help their city. Nothing, no financial reason, whatever it couldn't possibly have been.
• [00:24:18] CATHERINE ANDERSON: When you work, did you had a lot to do with the police department and sheriff's department?
• [00:24:25] FRED LOOKER: No.
• [00:24:27] CATHERINE ANDERSON: But you were an honorary policeman. Why don't you tell us about how that happened?
• [00:24:31] FRED LOOKER: That was just a bunch of dope. When I retired they gave me, the department heads all got together and gave me a gift and gave me a big banquet out of one of the local restaurants. The police department through their chief at that time was Gainsley, started this honorary patrolman business. I don't know whether it's still going on or not, but there were several all important visitors come to city, and that was one of the things they give them an honorary police membership.
• [00:25:22] CATHERINE ANDERSON: You mentioned about buying land for the university and things? When you worked for the city, was there ever a lot of any conflict between the university and city administration?
• [00:25:34] FRED LOOKER: No, I don't think so. They lived in fairly good harmony. They had their little ups and downs, but no, I can't think of what you term a controversy at all.
• [00:25:54] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What are the major ways that you've seen the city change? Let's get away from politics a little, well politics the government is involved when the city changes. But how have you seen the city change since you've lived here as a resident?
• [00:26:11] FRED LOOKER: Well I believe losing more and more of their tax base by more and more land being acquired by tax exempt individuals like the university or the churches. The churches have all kinds of property left to them that was formally on the tax roll, and the minute it becomes church property is off, even though they are renting it for gain, it still is off of the tax roll. I believe now about about 55% of the Ann Arbor property is not assessable, so the other 45% is being charged to the home owner.
• [00:27:04] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Do you think people are as interested in city politics and city government now as they were before?
• [00:27:14] FRED LOOKER: Yes. There's a certain group of people who always be interested in politics. Whether they have some future position in mind, like getting to be a congressman or starting out. That's usually the starting point is some city or county job.
• [00:27:40] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What do you remember any large groups, let's say, maybe large women's groups when they first got the vote in the 20s, or other groups that were really vocal in city politics?
• [00:27:54] FRED LOOKER: I would say the League of Women's Voters.
• [00:27:58] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Can you describe that a little bit? How they were active?
• [00:28:03] FRED LOOKER: No, they were very helpful. Some of the things were controversial, but there's got to be two lines of thinking of all and sometimes what they wanted and what the counsel wanted weren't always the same. I can't think of any other group other than the two political groups that there was only two vociferous ones at that time, the Republicans and the Democrats or sometimes some other parties showed up at the election because they'd gotten enough signatures to get on the ballot, but the two major parties were the Republicans and the Democrats.
• [00:28:56] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Can you remember any election in particular that was extremely hard fought, even a city election or a national election?
• [00:29:10] FRED LOOKER: No. With the sincerity of the people that were trying to get the office. I think all of them are fought along the claim lines.
• [00:29:20] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Did you ever participate in campaigns?
• [00:29:22] FRED LOOKER: No. I was appointed, and I was afraid the other party might get in.
• [00:29:51] CATHERINE ANDERSON: If you had to look and say who were the most famous politicians in city government that you can remember, who would you recall?
• [00:30:08] FRED LOOKER: In what way do you mean?
• [00:30:10] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Well, in doing a good job for the city.
• [00:30:18] FRED LOOKER: I think Mr. Brown, Mr. Creal, Mr. Eldersveld, Mr. Sadler, all were mayors. They all did wonderful jobs for the city.
• [00:30:30] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Let's talk about those in each particular. We'll just have to go as best we can like, if we can talk about each of these men and talk about what you think they accomplished when they were mayors. Maybe tell me a little bit about their personalities. Let's start maybe Mr. Creal. If you were just telling someone about Mr. Creal and his job as mayor, what would you say?
• [00:30:58] FRED LOOKER: Well, I would have to say the same thing. For all of them, anyone that had spent that much time and effort, for the welfare of the city deserves all the praise they can possibly get. I wouldn't pick out any one of them for any extraordinary accomplishments. They all did what they could at the time, and what they saw was better for the city. I think that they were sincere people and had the welfare of the City of Ann Arbor at heart. That is one thing that Mayor Brown did that I hadn't thought of. But he instigated our present off street parking system, and built the first structure on Washington Street, the first off street parking structure, which was one of the first or possibly the first in the United States.
• [00:32:02] CATHERINE ANDERSON: How about your wife was telling us about when you went and got the funding or the bonds for the new City Hall? You were in the old city hall. What was the old City Hall like for someone? Can you describe to me what the old city hall was like because I was never in it?
• [00:32:21] FRED LOOKER: Well, you came in the front door and there was one big long corridor that went the full length of the building. At the end of that corridor, there was a wide staircase that went up to the second floor. On the first floor was the clerk's office and the city assessor, the city treasurer, and the mayor. The back part of the building was the water department. As the city grew, they bought the building next door, and the police department stayed where they were, but the water department went over into the other building. There was a health department upstairs, and they were moved around different places, the engineer's office upstairs, park department upstairs.
• [00:33:27] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Was it a beautiful building?
• [00:33:28] FRED LOOKER: It was just gorgeous. Beautiful oak banisters and beautiful, big high ceilings.
• [00:33:38] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Can you describe to us the process and what you had to go through to get funding for the new City Hall?
• [00:33:47] FRED LOOKER: Well, it was a vote of the people. We had to apply after the people approved it. We had to send our financial statement to the Michigan Finance Commission for approval, which they did. Then we advertised the bonds for sale. They were sold to the bidder that would give us the best interest rate. Some of them, in this particular incident, we had a deliver them to the first I guess it was a Chase National Bank in New York. That was part of the agreement that we would deliver them. They wouldn't have to come and get them or have them mailed or anything. Mayor Creal and the controller at that time and I took them personally to New York and delivered them to Chase Manhattan Bank, and several other times, different bond issues, not any particular bond issue, but part of the stipulation was that we were deliver them at such and such a place. Several times we were in Chicago and New York with bonds. That was just part of the job.
• [00:35:17] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Was there any old feelings about when the old City Hall was torn down?
• [00:35:24] FRED LOOKER: Well, I think a lot of people objected to it, the same as they would object to tearing down our old fire station that was built in 1882. I guess you'd describe it as nostalgia. Well, you'd have to have traveled in Europe to see those beautiful old buildings of some of 800 to 1,000 years old and they aren't thinking of tearing them down, putting a square cement block building there. They're worrying about maintaining them in their present condition with the ravages of air and water and one thing, another. They're trying to keep them, not destroy them. I think our historical society that we've got going now that is trying to preserve these old buildings doing a wonderful job. That may be an old fashioned line of thinking, but I'm all for keeping that old stuff.
• [00:36:20] CATHERINE ANDERSON: I am too. I wish I could have seen the the old courthouse. Did you ever have any difficulty in registering people, especially people on the outlying parts of the city? What was your procedure for registering voters?
• [00:36:41] FRED LOOKER: I ascertain they actually were 21 years of old age, and American citizen and a resident of the City of Ann Arbor. Where the birthplace was? In fact, I had one girl that use all this question. Where did she come from originally? Our greatest trouble was students. They had a good argument there. If they were living here and paying rent and buying their food and clothing, why couldn't they vote here? Why weren't they able to vote here? Why did they have to send for an absentee ballot at their home where they came from? But that was our state law. If you were a student, you voted in your hometown, but that has been changed.
• [00:37:43] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What did you like best about working for the city? What are your best memories about why you worked for the city and staying there for that long? [LAUGHTER]
• [00:38:01] FRED LOOKER: I think contact with people. Good and bad, argumentative and sociable, whatnot. I like to meet the people.
• [00:38:17] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Can you go into that a little bit more how your job let you do, let you meet the people?
• [00:38:22] FRED LOOKER: Well, you'd meet them mostly at registration time. You'd have all sorts of people that some of them wouldn't want to the different little controversies that come up. The state law says, do you solemnly swear and some of them object to that. They didn't want to swear to it. They'd affirm it, that it was a truth. Their age was none of your business, but you really had to know because the state election laws required that they be 21 in those days, and that they were residents of the city. That is where we got in the argument over the students. But that was nothing to do with the city at all, although the city got blamed for it, it was a state law, which, as I said, previously, has been changed now.
• [00:39:29] CATHERINE ANDERSON: I don't know if there are any things, but was there anything that you disliked about working for the city? Always being in the public eye, maybe, or was that ever a problem?
• [00:39:42] FRED LOOKER: No one of my greatest gripes was some of the unfounded complaints that go to the paper and the mayor and one thing or another. Even though they were found to be unwarranted, they were never corrected, never. That is if there was a write up in one of the papers about some happening and it proved that it did not happen. You'd never see a retraction of it.
• [00:40:12] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Give me an example of that. I know my brother in law works for the City of Dearborn, and he has the same thing. But can you give me an example of one of those controversies?
• [00:40:22] FRED LOOKER: Well, all I can think of one time that riled me the most was a crippled lady was in a voting machine booth. The state law says that you're only allowed two minutes in there. One of this lady was in there on her crutches, I believe. The election inspector said, I'm sorry, but you have used up your two minutes. But just as she said that, this crippled lady came out of the election place. The next night in the Ann Arbor paper or one of the papers, I don't remember we had more than one at that time. There's a big write up about the election people forcing a crippled lady out of the voting booth, and she missed a great, big, long harangue about what had happened to this poor crippled lady. The lady answered them, and that is she answered the mayor and the council that didn't happen. She was coming out anyway. She had voted, and she was coming out. Nobody forced her out. You never heard any retraction by the newspaper or anything else.
• [00:41:51] CATHERINE ANDERSON: How about was there any special city projects or special city involvement during World War II?
• [00:42:09] FRED LOOKER: Well, I don't remember when some of those public works like the big reservoir and pumping station out on Sunset Road were built. They were along in those times and the sewage disposal plant and the interceptor sewers. If they weren't in depression times, they were in World War II times. Of course, we've been adding to them ever since.
• [00:42:44] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Where do you think the city should move now? What do you think are the greatest concerns that the city should look at now?
• [00:42:52] FRED LOOKER: Annexations. Annexations and as to whether they have the water and sewage and different city services available to take care of any enormous subdivision that might ask to be annexed.
• [00:43:13] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Were there many annexations during the time you worked for the city?
• [00:43:19] FRED LOOKER: Yes, lots of them, but they were smaller ones. I think about the biggest one was Stadium Boulevard, the Frisinger subdivision. They were mostly, but we had adequate facilities at that time to take care of them, but it's growing so fast now. I'm not an engineer, but I don't know how they're going to keep up with it.
• [00:43:44] CATHERINE ANDERSON: What do you think of the new proposed city charter?
• [00:43:48] FRED LOOKER: I really couldn't comment. I haven't read it too thoroughly. Any proposed change has its merits and it's demerits. I wouldn't know. I'd have to read it more thoroughly to voice any definite opinion.
• [00:44:11] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Sort of off the cuff, what do you think of the three party system now in Ann Arbor and the new law that we vote for first preference and our second preference in voting? Do you think that's a good system or not?
• [00:44:31] FRED LOOKER: Well, evidently, there's only one other place the United States is in vogue somewhere in Connecticut, I believe. I would have to go through an election to find out. I don't know. There was an article in the paper the other night that seemed feasible, but the only thing is, I believe our Supreme Court has ruled one man, one vote. Under that system, you get two votes. You get your first choice and your second choice. I don't know whether that is hold water or not.
• [00:45:12] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Has Ann Arbor always been a pretty advanced community as far as its public, works and its public ordinances and legislation. Have they always been pretty much advanced from other communities?
• [00:45:27] FRED LOOKER: Well, they have at least been equal to them. Yeah, I would say, maybe better.
• [00:45:33] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Can you think of any areas in particular you mentioned parking? Are there any other areas?
• [00:45:41] FRED LOOKER: No. I think we have had the free opinions of some very valuable engineers due to the fact that we're here with the university. But any outstanding incident, I can't just think of right off the bat.
• [00:46:06] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Has the relationship between the actual city administration and, let's say, the Police Department or Fire Department changed since you used to work for that? Well, you worked for the Sheriff's Department, which was really a county. Well, has the relationship between the city and county governments changed?
• [00:46:24] FRED LOOKER: No, I don't think so.
• [00:46:25] CATHERINE ANDERSON: How about the police department and fire departments?
• [00:46:32] FRED LOOKER: And who?
• [00:46:33] CATHERINE ANDERSON: The city administration?
• [00:46:38] FRED LOOKER: Well, I don't think it's changed. It's always arguing over money anyway [LAUGHTER] They're still at it. I don't think that has changed any.
• [00:46:48] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Then I guess I'll leave it up to you, if you had one thing or if you had as many things as you want to say about your experiences in city politics and city government, what would you recall or what would you want people to know?
• [00:47:04] FRED LOOKER: I would like them to know that we have two classes of retirees. There's a first and second class. After 1968, people that are being retired, get about 33 and a third percent more pension than the older people that worked in the days when the salaries were way way down. But people saw it that way and voted it that way. I don't know how they can change it, but there's certainly two classes of retirees in the city.
• [00:47:45] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Is there anything you would like to tell people in terms of your own experience in the department, your own feelings about city government? Like if you could give any advice to someone coming up, thinking about going into local politics or local government, what would you tell them about your own experience?
• [00:48:08] FRED LOOKER: Well, I really won't tell too badly involved in politics because it was an appointed job. But you'd certainly have to be open minded to try for any of the jobs. No, I can't they want to run for office, that's their hard luck, I guess, you'd have to say.
• [00:48:41] CATHERINE ANDERSON: Would you encourage someone to try to become a city clerk or to go in to working in a city clerk's office?
• [00:48:48] FRED LOOKER: Oh, I wouldn't comment on that. Under the present set up, I wouldn't comment on that at all. I will say that in my experience, I owe a lot of the remembrances of my job to the loyal and efficient help I always had. I was always blessed with efficient loyal help. I didn't have any backbiters.