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Sesquicentennial Interview: Osias Zwerdling

When: 1974

This interview was conducted in 1974 as part of the I Remember When television series produced by the Ann Arbor Public Library.

Transcript

  • [00:00:11] TED TROST: Mr. Zwerdling, could you tell us how your family happened to come to Ann Arbor?
  • [00:00:16] OSIAS ZWERDLING: My family didn't come to Ann Arbor it's only me. I happened to be an orphan when I was three years old. My father passed away. He was 25 years old. My mother was 23 years old when she was a widow. There were four orphans left and I was one of them. I was brought up really mostly by my maternal grandfather who headed the Yeshiva, which is the religious school of the Jewish people. He took me in, he taught me till I was 13 years old. That's where, you probably heard the word bar mitzvah. At that time, I could no longer see my mother's suffering, just to try to keep the orphans and the bare necessities of life, so I went to learn a trade, to be a tailor, and then I learned after the three years of apprenticeship. Then I went to a small town, where I had boarding room and after that, I went to Lemberg, which was the largest city next to Brody where I was born. There I started to make a few gulden, which means dollars here, to help my mother. From there, I went to Paris, France, where I worked also. A man from my country, who was a tailor, who gave me a job, then I joined designing ladies' clothes, went to night school, tailor and designing. Finally, in 1901 I arrived in Buffalo, New York, was the year that President McKinley was shot. That was after twelve years. I beg your pardon, twelve days, I was on the lower deck, you know, steerage. Finally landed in New York. From there, I went to Buffalo where another landsman, what he called my countryman, offered me a job there. I worked there a year. Then I went back to New York. I happened to work in the place where Mack and Company here, which was the biggest department store in Ann Arbor at that time. They had a total block between where Kresges used to be on corner of Washington, Cunningham corner, Liberty and they needed a designer. They sent somebody out there where they used to get their samples for ladies. That time you used to make ladies' clothes to order. It wasn't ready-made like today and I was recommended and that's why I came to Ann Arbor. That's when my luck changed for the better.
  • [00:04:21] TED TROST: That was in what year 19?
  • [00:04:23] OSIAS ZWERDLING: It was in 1903 when I came to Ann Arbor.
  • [00:04:26] TED TROST: You came to Ann Arbor. Was there any Jewish community here by the time you came to the city?
  • [00:04:34] OSIAS ZWERDLING: None but there were no organized Jewish community. The fact of the matter is we didn't have enough, a quota, which takes ten male after the confirmed at the 13 years old.
  • [00:04:50] TED TROST: For a minyan.
  • [00:04:51] OSIAS ZWERDLING: For a minyan, right, and so there was none. There was not enough for that and it just seems like the Lord's way that it all happened that Robert George Sloman came from Jerusalem to go to Chicago to raise some money for that time for Jerusalem, for the poor people who at that time, well just had a very hard time. On the way from Chicago, going to Detroit, there was an accident near Chelsea, two inter driven cars got together, a collision. The Rabbi's son who was with him was killed, and he was badly hurt, so they called me past midnight from the University Hospital, that they cannot communicate with him and he was not in a condition where they could put him to sleep, so they wanted to know whether I would come down. The doctor came down for me and as I went up at the third floor, the old hospital on Catherine Street not Ann Street. There was a Rabbi with his eyes closed and his arms stretched out to pray in the Hebrew. I touched his hand and I said, Shalom aleichem, peace be with you. Then he opened his eyes wide and started to thank God that he has somebody he can communicate with. I went down, they used to take care of him, the dietary laws, because he couldn't eat anything in the hospital. That was something my wife and I used to go down and have a long visit with him. He was getting along better until the month before the high holidays. We found him in tears and when we were asking he says, Well, I've been at this place praying by myself all these months. Now it goes to the high holidays. And I must pray with a quota, with a minyan as you said. I says, That's impossible. We don't have enough even with you. He says, What do you do? I told him, We go to Detroit. I will go too. But he was no position to leave, so I talked to the doctor, and he absolutely forbade it, so my wife and I decided we should take him to our home and bring another two Jewish men from Detroit, and also got the scroll of the Lord, Torah, into to our house, and I wheeled him to our home and he stayed from the day before, Rosh Hashanah's first day. This is two days to the day after the same thing for the Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, and that's the way we had the first minyan in our house. Wasn't this house, it was Liberty Street. After that, that night, after fasting 24 hours, which you usually do. Somehow when he thanked me for being so kind. I got up and I says, Well, it seems this is a miracle and it's a sign from God that we must organize a Jewish community. We shouldn't have to go out from Ann Arbor. At that time, one of the families had a boy to be Bar Mitzvahed [INAUDIBLE] thirteen years old. Another one had a boy gonna be Bar Mitzvah, so we figured out, we'd have a minyan. The next minyan we had the following year was at the Salvation Army, on north Forth Avenue, upstairs, second floor. Then we went to the Arbeiter, means the workman's circles. They have a hall there on the west side. Then we had Ladies Library, which is the present, where the telephone company is, on east Huron Street.
  • [00:10:39] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Finally, we got together the few of us, and we purchased a very dilapidated little place, that is now the Greek church on north Main Street and we have a man coming over who was doing everything. He was the cantor, he was the slaughter, we have to have a shohet to make Kosher chickens, other fowls. He was also the teacher, everything, he and his family had a few rooms upstairs, and he was getting eighteen dollars a week. That's what he was getting and so that went on. From there, we finally bought 538 North Division Street which is now the St. Thomas youth center. We bought that building, went with joy, carrying that torah, singing, we had a big dinner there. We were very happy there. Things didn't go smooth, depression came, we couldn't continue to pay on that mortgage. They were heavy, but somehow some way, the Lord was good to us. We managed, we finally sold that place. From then on we went down to 2101 Hill Street, next to Dr. Bursley, who was the head of the mens students. We bought a nice big home there. I give you a capsule and that's the way it started, yes, by 1916, we organized right in my home, had the first service that was in Ann Arbor for the high holidays.
  • [00:13:01] TED TROST: That was in 1916.
  • [00:13:02] OSIAS ZWERDLING: 1916, that's when we organized, the same few people worked. They were very devoted and dedicated to keep the flame burning.
  • [00:13:18] TED TROST: These people that were involved were of course, Jewish background and so on, but did they represent different ethnic groups where there's some from Germany?
  • [00:13:31] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Yes, I said that. None of them were from Germany. I was the closest, Austria.
  • [00:13:36] TED TROST: From Austria.
  • [00:13:36] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Now, these people they were all from Russia.
  • [00:13:39] TED TROST: I see.
  • [00:13:41] OSIAS ZWERDLING: They all started in with the horse and wagon, to pedal a little junk picking up a little junk, and so forth, and that's the way. They worked very hard trying to make a decent living. But they still wanted their children to know about our people and Jewish people. I remember one instance, especially, there's a woman a Mrs. Abrams, they had a little restaurant on East William Street. Every Monday morning, she would come to my office, I had an office in my store on East Liberty Street. She'd come with a handkerchief, tied very tight knot, and she put it down on my desk, Nickels and dimes and pennies, two dollars. Every Monday morning. She saw a little boy David come. David was his name, he should be able to go to learn something about his people. His were the Jewish people. So instance this lady people took her from their mouth, but I was so anxious for their children to learn something. He's a lawyer now, by the way, in Detroit.
  • [00:15:15] TED TROST: I understand there are two congregations though now. Could you explain about that for us, please?
  • [00:15:22] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Well, sir. There was only one congregation till only a very few years ago. By the way, I must say this, I think you probably have that [INAUDIBLE] version, that's why you have the Catholics, Protestant, Unitarian, so forth and so on. Same thing in our religion, there are some people that will still remember where they come from. They will continue as long as they live to follow their parents, their grandparents and so forth. There are some people that become they think it's not stylish enough, they notice now they want to reform synagogue. This [INAUDIBLE] engagement was organized in 1916, the Beth Emeth, which means the House of Truth. That's the name of there, where they meet in the church, you know that I am sure. Now they organize because it wasn't modern enough for them, so they have a Rabbi Warshal, which you probably met.
  • [00:16:48] TED TROST: I know him.
  • [00:16:49] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Nice gentleman. But we are getting along very well. We all after all try for the same thing but when I look back at my beginning, we had no religious organization of any kind. Then I realize that each one wanted to do the best for the thing for themselves, their family. And our Rabbi [INAUDIBLE] Kensky is get along very well with Rabbi Warshal. We sometimes have even joint service and so forth and I wish him plenty luck.
  • [00:17:41] TED TROST: How large is your congregation now?
  • [00:17:44] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Rabbi, can you answer that?
  • [00:17:45] RABBI: 190 families.
  • [00:17:48] TED TROST: What are some of the activities that you engage in as a community?
  • [00:17:53] OSIAS ZWERDLING: I think you could tell him that.
  • [00:17:56] TED TROST: Sure.
  • [00:17:57] RABBI: They want you to speak.
  • [00:17:59] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Go ahead.
  • [00:17:59] RABBI: No. They want to hear you.
  • [00:18:05] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Now, first thing, we have a very dedicated sisterhood. They're doing a tremendous job. Then we have a very wonderful education department. How many children do we have in the education?
  • [00:18:25] RABBI: About 125.
  • [00:18:28] OSIAS ZWERDLING: We have a Hebrew school. It may interest you to know, not many years ago, but some of the mothers used to call me up, used to object. Why do you waste the time of my child? He comes home and he speaks to me a foreign language. Many of these mothers today bring their children to Hebrew school, some come to Hebrew school, which we have twice a week, isn't it? They starting right from kindergarten, you see? They do it so willingly and enthusiastically, so I can see, thank God for the change.
  • [00:19:23] OSIAS ZWERDLING: They have all kinds different holidays, like the rabbi plans. This week happened to be Hanukkah. It was my privilege and pleasure to be Sunday morning invited to make a tape for the children. The questions that those children asked really were so enlightening to me, gave me so much pleasure. I couldn't get over it, I was so earnest and then I saw a five year old child bless the candle, all in the Hebrew language without having anything to look at, just remember two blessings, three blessings, because the first day you make also Shehecheyanu. It means that you thank God you lived to this day something new.
  • [00:20:30] TED TROST: Is the community pretty closely knit then, most people in your congregation are involved in the total life of the congregation.
  • [00:20:38] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Of course the congregation very enthusiastic. I can't say 100% more than your congregation [LAUGHTER].
  • [00:20:49] TED TROST: Now, I guess none of us can say that. What is the Hadassah?
  • [00:20:55] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Hadassah is for relief for Israel. They have a wonderful hospital in Jerusalem [INAUDIBLE]. They have a wonderful great scientists there, and they do a tremendous job. I had a privilege. I could not see in 1958, in Israel. I could not see the part I wanted to see, but Hadassah is now right in the east Jerusalem. This is the Hillel foundation, they're building now right at Mount Scopus, the new Hillel. They're building there, the million dollar student Hillel Foundation like we have here on the Hill Street. This is only since 1900 and 25 since we became Israel. Hadassah have very dedicated all over the world, members, and they take care of people regard of religion in the hospital and other things that Hadassah doing. They have a tremendous amount of members. That's what Hadassah is. [INAUDIBLE]
  • [00:22:41] RABBI: Hadassah was one of the names of Queen Esther, and therefore it's the name for a women's group.
  • [00:22:49] TED TROST: Do you feel that among the Jewish community, the respect for tradition is beginning to fall off or is it being recaptured in these times?
  • [00:23:13] OSIAS ZWERDLING: I don't think we could expect that all the Jewish people and more than the don't Jewish people will follow the traditions of our pious ancestors. We're living in a different age, so it's excusable. The main thing is where we remember the Shema, that's the main thing. Hear the Lord is God. The Lord is one. Whether they keep the diet laws, whether they keep the Shabbat. Matter of that I have just had here, Judy Cohen and a young man, Weil.
  • [00:24:00] RABBI: Danny Weil.
  • [00:24:01] OSIAS ZWERDLING: His parents, here's the remarkable thing. His parents they belong to Beth Israel years ago when that boy was here a little while ago. They belong to an event to have Sunday School. Once she got out of Sunday School, they no longer belong to anything. But that young man is very religious, today's Shabbat. He had to go to live in Pauline Boulevard, Pauline, way on the west side southwest. He walked here. He wouldn't ride to the Shabbat. Judy Cohen same way. I couldn't help but notice she comes to our Synagogue services. She comes a little late, she always stands up until she catches up to where we are. Every time been supposed to be a prayer to rise, she may be the only one to rise for that prayer. The courage and things like that. Her parents don't believe too much in it, so somehow the way the Lord makes it. The second generation may go away a little now, but the third generation is coming back, and that's been my humble opinion.
  • [00:25:38] TED TROST: What the father chooses to forget, the grandson chooses to remember. Yes. What was it like for the Jewish community during World War II?
  • [00:25:53] OSIAS ZWERDLING: The Jewish community number one. World War II most of our members we only had one congregation that time. We still had a few who were dealing in junk. A few who had stores, a few who were working some factory or something. The majority have been faculty people. That's the most remarkable thing to me too. In my time at first, we had the local people, the faculty people who were not at all interested. We never saw them come to show perhaps Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, the high holidays. It's the only time they'd be there, but somehow, little by little, one brings the other. Today, what would you say the percentage of the faculty people would be? Now sure?
  • [00:27:12] RABBI: 70% perhaps higher.
  • [00:27:15] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Majority, isn't it?
  • [00:27:17] RABBI: Yes.
  • [00:27:17] OSIAS ZWERDLING: You see, so changed over. Now, the faculty people in waged people, they didn't have too much. They're not great investors, so they didn't lose their investment. Their salary was paid. True, there are people who were laid off Detroit. But we didn't feel the depression like they did in the cities. I'm in Ann Arbor 72 years, and I don't know if anything we went through a number of depression. I'll give you an instance, 1907. I decided to go to see my only sister. She was the only orphan beside me that was left. Somehow, the Lord merciful took the two infants away, so to leave enough bread for the other infants to exist, to survive. So 1907, I decided to go and see my sister and the family, Manchester, England. And I had $1,500 saved up. I came to New York to my uncle, and I told the uncle, you take half of this and put it in your bank. He says, no, my dear nephew. I will not put it in the bank. I took everything I have out of the bank because I'm afraid banks are going broke, and there were quite a few already and more were going broke, so I put it in the safe. Now, to me, when I came from Ann Arbor, was really a surprise, so we were blessed in this community, and I suppose, because of the university, more of a stable city.
  • [00:29:37] TED TROST: Have you seen Ann Arbor change much over the years?
  • [00:29:42] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Considerable, sir. Yes, so everything changed, and I think it changed like they did it for the better.
  • [00:29:49] TED TROST: You're optimistic about the city then?
  • [00:29:51] OSIAS ZWERDLING: I am, sir. Yes, I'm very optimistic about the city. I again say a lot has got to do with it, with the university. My own life, I am very grateful to this day. As I mentioned, I never went to secondary school in my life to this day. But all what I learned is from the good people in Ann Arbor somehow. From the time I first got married to my Manchester girl from England and came back. I was invited to different organization to be on the board of this and the board of the other. Just to start like the family child service, other organizations. But meeting these fine people, through them, somehow, I learned that the little I know is due to these kind people who invited me and helped me. This is Ann Arbor for me, it always will be.
  • [00:31:11] TED TROST: You've been retired for some time. It's 1943, wasn't it?
  • [00:31:14] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Yes, sir.
  • [00:31:16] TED TROST: How have you been spending those years? You've continued to learn, I'm sure, and are thankful for each day the Lord gives you.
  • [00:31:23] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Well, sir, I will tell you. I retired because I always was a joiner, I belonged to too many things. I had a big business too. It was a question, you see, I don't want to bore you, but this come back to me. My wife used to like to go window shopping. When the season of football here in Ann Arbor, might be in the first people who used to come to take their coat out of storage, go to the football game. Believe it or not, many men wore raccoon and later beaver coats.
  • [00:32:19] TED TROST: Now, you were talking about your retirement. We'll just pick up from there.
  • [00:32:24] OSIAS ZWERDLING: I lied down to this couch just to have a little rest after coming from the rush for going to the football games for the coats to take out from the wall. My wife came home and when she saw me. Says, you are ill. I says, no, I'm not, I'm alright. Don't tell me you wouldn't come home in the afternoon lie down. I says, I give you my word of honor. Oh no, so she called the doctor. Doctor Smith was my doctor, lady Doctor. She says, Osias, let me take a look. She examined me. She says I can't find anything wrong with him. She says, you come down Monday morning to my office and I'll give you a more thorough examination. When I was there, my wife naturally come right with me. Then the doctor reported. She says, Osias is working too hard. You got to quit one or the other. He's in so many things. You can't keep doing that and also be in business. I choose I wrote at the Newsweek in New York, which is a women's magazine. I told them for sale at first and, is it a town 40 some years in business, the reason retiring. Jacobson's, Nate Rosenfeld to the the head of that corporation, called me a few days later in the morning. Said Mr. Zwerdling, are you selling your store? He came over the same day. I made the same day. I sold the store. I called my wife and I told her, I'm going to bring a couple of friends of mine for dinner. She says fine. I brought them, Mr. Rosenfeld, and then the man that in charge of the fur department in Jackson, where they have their headquarters. I says, Honey. Here the new owners of the Zwerdling's Furs shop. Says, what? I says, You heard it. Go on. You're crazy. I says, if I am, don't you like the idea? You heard what Doctor Smith says, I choose to do that. That's the way I sold my business. I've been retired ever since, been love it.
  • [00:35:20] TED TROST: But involved in many organizations?
  • [00:35:23] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Yes, I was involved in many organizations. I was honored to be the chairman of USO. The NCCJ and the Chamber of Commerce, but also the many other United Funds and so forth. Besides my first love, the Beth Israel, the Hillel Foundation.
  • [00:35:53] TED TROST: What was the feeling of the Jewish community during World War II?
  • [00:35:59] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Well, the Jewish community, thank God for this. The feeling that wasn't a prejudice like there was when I came to Ann Arbor, that you had no chance to get into medical school, for instance. You may not know about Doctor Reuben Kahn. He were the greatest specialist in cancer research. He replaced the Wassermann test. It's now the Kahn test. Doctor Reuben Kahn was a very humble man but a great scientist. He was invited by the League of Nations way back in 1930, something like that. He was invited there to lecture. But he could not be made professor in this university. First, he was the faculty, then he was a teacher, and he was a assistant professor, then finally associate professor. Not until retired, then he got his professorship. That gives you a picture of the [INAUDIBLE] over there. We had a Doctor Raphael Isaacs, who came to the Simpson Memorial Hospital. You know where that is, on Huron. They found he's the only one with a specialist for leukemia. He's the one that found out that the liver was very helpful. He made pills. Just because the Simpson Memorial Hospital was donated to the University of Michigan by that family that they had their own debt deed. That no Jew can serve as the head of that hospital. Finally, he moved to Chicago where the Michael Reese Hospital, where they established a blood department. Dr. Raphael Isaacs was a great guy. It was anti-Semitic, no question about it. But the Jewish used to that. It's been ever since the Jewish people, I think. Thank God, I've seen that a great improvement to this day. They got better, not worse.
  • [00:39:06] TED TROST: That was after World War ll, that it began to improve?
  • [00:39:09] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Yeah. After World War II. It was impossible. I remember when I came here only two, no three, Jewish faculty people. They were there because they couldn't get anybody as good as there. It was a matter of survival of the fittest. That's the way it was. Today, Well, I think it's all over the country, but it's not all over the world yet, far from it.
  • [00:39:43] TED TROST: Did you yourself feel some of this discrimination in your early years here?
  • [00:39:47] OSIAS ZWERDLING: No, sir. I could really say I was very fortunate. All the people, all the organizations that I belong to except the Beth Israel and the Hillel Foundation. All the other organization were not Jewish, and I was treated just like their own. I gave you like Kiwanis. I belong to Kiwanis, but I still observe the dietary laws, for instance. All right. It's a little thing, but it just gives you an idea. You see the Kiwanis Club, which is a service club in it. Usually, when I used to come, they'd make soft boiled eggs for me because they knew I'm in the dietary laws. That time President Charlie Fisher. He was a faculty man university. And somebody get up and he says, President Charles, I move that Osias should be fined. It was during the World War. Says, we are eating like bums and Osias has got fresh eggs, and so forth. Charlie Fisher says overruled. Osias has got a good reason. See?
  • [00:41:25] OSIAS ZWERDLING: It shows you, you're respected. I'll tell you another thing. You don't remember, Charles Brashares? Charles Brashares used to be a Methodist minister. Later became a bishop, well they honored him so I invited my wife and myself. Was on a Thursday night, and it wasn't even. There at the head table, he was sitting between the two of us, my wife, me. They served a whole kosher meal that night, tossed salad [INAUDIBLE] . Tossed salad and boiled whitefish, so forth. After it all through, so I asked him, I says, Charlie, see because Kiwanis is supposed to call each other by their first name. I says, How comes? He serves not only to us, but the whole congregation of about 300 or more people there. The same kind of meal. He says Osias, I tried to get a nice meat meal for you and I went to [INAUDIBLE], they used to be next to the State theater, a Jewish restaurant. But they were not equipped to serve so many, so he told me that fish should be all right, so I serve that. The next day, there was a dispute in the Detroit Jewish news, which sit here and some people said, why is it a Jewish people when they have an organization go into some place where they have no dietary laws, some members who would like to have, and some said, well, it's a different world today. We got to cater to everybody. I sent this exactly what happened that Thursday night to Philip Slomovitz, who was the editor and owner of that newspaper. I say, I leave all comments to you, Phil. The next edition repeated my letter. He says, my very good friend Osias leaves all comments to me. All I can say is respect begets respect. That was the answer. I saw on Ann Arbor, thank God that I've seen that people respect you, whatever you are that make a difference, what tradition? This is a very good sign for [INAUDIBLE].
  • [00:44:41] TED TROST: Thank you. You may have some questions.
  • [00:44:47] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Sure, he is. Remember what happened to be because of [INAUDIBLE]. My whole life up to the time when I came to Ann Arbor was a very serious life. I had to stretch every penny coin to take care of my family at home and I really did not have too much time for my personal. I read some different anecdotes, some jokes, so forth. Is that what you want? But my own life was really serious. I can't remember all
  • [00:45:43] TED TROST: But maybe you could say and this would be a form of testimony how your Jewish faith has sustained you in good times and in bad. I'm sure it has.
  • [00:45:54] OSIAS ZWERDLING: Well, this is serious, again. It has sustained me because, I believe, that as long that you observe what it says in The Shema, hear Israel. Thou should love thy God with all thy heart with all thy might know they have. Then it says, that should teach to do with thy children. That I should talk to them, when you lie down, when you rise up, when they walk it out, when you return, and so forth. This not only sustained me, but it sustained my family. I had three sons. Unfortunately, it was [INAUDIBLE] three. He has taken. My oldest son was very kind to me. He passed away just about three months ago. He the only one that used to live in Detroit, was a judge there. He used to come every Sunday spent the day with me. Before I had my cataracts removed, a few years ago, he would come and he would lead my hand, to where to sign an instrument. It's more than a song. Used to bring from Eastern Market, Detroit, he bring the vegetables and my kosher meat, and all that. He was well dedicated. But anyway, he would always sign his name when he wrote to me in the Hebrew, Moses. You see? The other boys do the same thing to me. They are high in Washington. Thank God, they reached very high offices. They are not politics. One is the general Counsel of the AFL. The other is the Chief Judge administrator for the Federal Park Commission, and they didn't keep the dietary laws, I'm sorry, because their wives also they were career and where they couldn't keep the place Kosher, what they call, because it was mixed up and they come home, dishes had mixed up and everything. They got discouraged. But for me, I go there for Passover, for instance, and everything is just like it used to be, they saw their parents. You see. Now, this means to me, it sustained me when I could see the little that I could teach, we didn't have the possibility. We didn't have the education department like Beth Israel has got today. I used to have a student given some lessons a couple of times a week. But nevertheless, there's one commandment I could say truthfully and that's the fifth commandment. They observed to the letter Thou shall love thy father. In fact, that's the commandment and the only bond that reward is promised. Your day should be lengthened for that and they know me, so it sustained me. There was a lot of encouragement in my life, discouragement to me. But I had lot of encouragement from the friends, especially in Ann Arbor and never to this day, but they ever felt any hardship because I was Jewish. That sustained me a great deal.