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There Went The Neighborhood - Studio Interview: Dorothy Slay

When: May 24, 2021

Dorothy Slay moved from Kentucky to Ann Arbor in 1962. She recalls how students who attended Jones School faced structural inequalities and racism–including her son, Curtis Davis. Mrs. Slay was a longtime homeowner in “The Old Neighborhood.”

This interview was filmed during the making of the documentary film There Went The Neighborhood: The Closing of Jones School, produced by the Ann Arbor District Library and 7 Cylinders Studio. More interviews are available in the There Went The Neighborhood Interview Archive.

Transcript

  • [00:00:05] DONALD HARRISON: This is going to be Dorothy. [NOISE] You know I'd like to start off with you just saying your name and when you got to Ann Arbor, how long you've been in Ann Arbor, where you were born.
  • [00:00:16] DOROTHY SLAY: Okay. My name is Dorothy Slay, and I came to Ann Arbor in 1961, my first time. I returned home back to Kentucky. I'm from Newport, Kentucky. I came here for a visit, stayed here for about a year and then went back to Kentucky and decided to return. I've lived in Ann Arbor since 1962. However, the first year I lived, I was living with friends, I was staying in their homes for about a year prior to moving to Ann Arbor. Curtis, my son who is the young man that you had talked to previously and given his scenario and his actual [LAUGHTER] situation of Ann Arbor going to school there. The details naturally for me might be a little foggy, but most of it will be on target as far as what I can tell you and my different experiences about Ann Arbor. I came the first time in '61, but since 1962 I permanently have been here.
  • [00:02:33] DONALD HARRISON: What was your impression of Ann Arbor? What do you remember? You must have liked it enough to want to come back.
  • [00:02:38] DOROTHY SLAY: Well, being from a small town in Kentucky, not exposed to the same situation of life, the part of Kentucky I came from, it wasn't rural, it was a small city. But the dynamics of Ann Arbor was like a complete different world for me. Initially, I was afraid because of so many things. I came from a very, you might say southern, it's called Jim Crow area I was brought up in, which meant that I lived as a poor Black child in the South. But we were not in the south, we were in Kentucky which is almost like a border state to the South. But it has similar dynamics as further south or deeper south. I was brought up in a segregated school system. Segregated [LAUGHTER] everything, schools, churches, parks, none of things that were in Ann Arbor. It was completely different. I wasn't allowed to go to parks. This was the law in Kentucky. You couldn't do these things, you couldn't drink from the same water fountains, you couldn't go to the movies, none of that which when I came to Michigan, to Ann Arbor, that was a total different situation. But I still was afraid as far as can I do this or should I do this? So I walked very very quietly. But things as I stayed, I became much more involved with the things around me and the opportunities that were presented to me then. I was able to involve myself in and so I became much more outgoing, I'd call it and not held back. I felt like I was held back. I wouldn't do it because that fear of what could happen. So it was life changing for me. And so bringing my son, my Curtis, who was already my child, naturally that changed his situation, as he grew, from what mine was like. Coming to Ann Arbor, coming north, those things I was not afraid to try to do whatever I needed to do as a young woman, a mother to see that happen. I had to overcome some of my lack of understanding. Being able to adapt into a living situation even though there was parts of the Ann Arbor community, Ypsilanti community that [COUGHS] you could tell that they have some problems with racial equality, I would say people being treated the same. But it was a world of difference. I hope to be a part of, not really being on the outside. I don't have to be afraid, and if there's something I see that I can speak to or be able to help make that change, or, in other words, making it understood that we can do better. Meaning I can do better, and in this area that I'm living in, you can do better. As I have grown older, coming here as a young lady, things I accomplished, for me, it's been really great. I think through my work, I helped other people to maybe work through some difficult situations, and then I'll say, "Just because someone says you're not this or not that, it doesn't mean that you are that. But you can make a difference. You can let them know that you are somebody." It's been a very interesting [LAUGHTER] journey, and it continues to be. In this area so many things that are wrong, but yet there are so many things that are right. Because there seems to be a watering place or a gathering of the people that want to be better, that want to do better. The rich as well as the poor.
  • [00:10:01] DONALD HARRISON: You're saying Ann Arbor?
  • [00:10:02] DOROTHY SLAY: Ann Arbor is, to me, people from all walks of life have the opportunity to come together, have that opportunity because even though the powers that be --there are so many people coming here to change their lives. We're changing their lives. They change other people's life for the better. Because--though I'm not saying that some of the politics and things that are not, or has not--they're exposed to the point. So many people saying, well, through my eyes and through my life I'm going to show you what I see, and show you what I've lived and what I have experienced. They bring all those statements from everywhere. Every place in the world has its difficulties and challenges, and the people who just don't want to feel that everybody has a place at the table, and that they're allowed to be able to sit down and negotiate and come together for the better, that's what I have found about Ann Arbor, that you have that opportunity, you get that opportunity. I have been involved in citizen participation groups. I served on revenue sharing boards. I've worked for Summit Medical, which was geared toward people, minorities, people with low incomes. I went from there to work with Dr. Jerry Walden in the Packard Community Clinic. I went there to open, and he requested that. "Could you come with us? We're going to start this new clinic, that's going to be part of the same old Summit taking care of the people with lower incomes, people without money." Then we eventually went into-- Medicaid become a significant part of the health industry for low-income families. I met so many people from the Ann Arbor community and the Ypsilanti community because the areas that the clinic was basically working and serving were basically the areas where the people with a lower income and medically challenged. I think through the university and the medical school there, a lot of your students, medical students, they have made an impact with working with the university and through St. Joe's Hospital. These people established a larger, a broader base which started for me with Dr. Ed Pierce and Dr. Jerry Walden at these medical clinics because it was that part of the community with low incomes and people who were medically under-served.
  • [00:14:11] DONALD HARRISON: I'm going to jump in a little bit. You were saying you didn't remember a lot, and clearly, you remember a lot. This is great. I feel like there's so much that I would want to cover with you, but I want to make sure we share a little bit about Jones first, and then we can expand there to save your time. I know, Curtis, you're the only one that went to Jones because your other siblings wouldn't have had the chance. What was your feeling about Jones School? And then were you involved in, I know there were parents that wanted it closed because they felt the education wasn't, there were studies that showed it wasn't as good an education, and then there were parents who were opposed to that happening. Were you involved in that? What's your recollection of Jones as a school and then them closing it?
  • [00:15:13] DOROTHY SLAY: Well, [NOISE] being a young mother and having a child who was that age, school-age, that he--Jones School was still going on. When we moved there, it was in 1962 and Curtis, kindergarten, four years old. Naturally, and the school being so close [LAUGHTER] and then having a crossing guard at the corner between Fifth and Kingsley, that was the main street that he would have to cross, and there was always a crossing guard [OVERLAPPING]
  • [00:16:06] DONALD HARRISON: It's just a few blocks from your house--
  • [00:16:06] DOROTHY SLAY: Two blocks, it's really about two blocks.
  • [00:16:13] DONALD HARRISON: Can't get much closer.
  • [00:16:17] DOROTHY SLAY: [LAUGHTER] That felt good for me and being able to, if I needed to go up to the school for something or some reason, I didn't have very far to walk to. I worked every day. At the time he was in school, I was hired to be a worker, I was at work before that. We had neighbors all around, and neighbors at that time looked out. I guess in some neighborhoods they do look out for each other's children and make sure if they're going to school or walking in the street they'd be watching their kids and make sure they were okay. At that point, I can't remember any situation occurring with him that made me fear for his life at that time. Curtis was such a well-rounded child, very outgoing, and people tended to flock to him. Some of the challenges that maybe some other parents had, I did not have that with Curtis. Even though, naturally, you wonder. I didn't have the problem of him not being able to catch on with his schoolwork, so he was pretty quick with that, as far as that was concerned. But there still was the issue when there came time, and they decided that they were going to close Jones School and move the kids to other schools through the busing system. My concern was naturally I didn't like the idea.
  • [00:18:26] DONALD HARRISON: We are going to pause for a second, somebody's got a motorcycle [OVERLAPPING] [LAUGHTER]. Sorry to interrupt, but I know that's pretty loud. Sorry to interrupt but, again, you were saying as far as Jones was, [OVERLAPPING] you heard that it was going to close?
  • [00:18:49] DOROTHY SLAY: Right.
  • [00:18:50] DONALD HARRISON: Were you upset by that or did you think it was a good thing?
  • [00:18:54] DOROTHY SLAY: No. I wasn't upset as such, but I was concerned. The simple reason is that, I was thinking about the busing situation as far as a child getting on a bus or whatever, and going away from home. When I was close, going away from home on the bus. But I was concerned because it tended to me to sound like they put Jones School in a whole different category as I heard and as I come to find. And it was just like, the children that was on the West Side that were going to Mack School or Wines School and everything. It tended that the community or the people--felt like these kids were less at Jones School, that these kids, well, naturally and truthfully said, they weren't getting the same education. The quality of the education that kids in suburban schools and all that, and that was the positive thought that I had that, maybe they will get a better education. See, at that time, I didn't completely understand the difference in the building and the people that they put in the building to teach these kids, and it was like that they, because of where it was located at, that's the reason these children that went to that school weren't going to get as much or the best education as the kids in Ann Arbor's suburban community, but given the fact that they were out and not central because most of your Black community and everything was in the central part of Ann Arbor. My area was called the North Central, which was right there. Those inner cities as they call them, Detroit, and Dearborn, the inner cities. Central Ann Arbor was considered like this. That was inner city for Ann Arbor, and it's on the outskirts like the West Side. It's like these kids were considered more suburbia being in that area. And we can see from what has come to pass, how like I said, you needed a dollar amount to support the school system from that area because a lot of your lower income ended up over there, so naturally the school didn't get the support and the kind of quality educators to give these kids more, better, and at least equal education as other school systems. I was torn a bit at first about the fact of him getting bused out to a school. Again, it's the fact that if he stayed at Jones School... I did not support the busing so much, but I surely was against the fact that, not so much with my son--his challenges seemed to be met--but so many other kids that I knew had challenges, I could tell by my interaction with their family and their parents, and it seemed like nobody cared. And so that was my dilemma, but after a while, it got easier as Curtis went on from Jones School to Tappan. He functioned, he was okay. With me being able to know a lot of the families, well, I found out, why can't they be able to get an education and being able to read and write and being able to catch up, and then always other challenges. When the kid is not able to function, you are taking them from one situation, bad situation, but it's worse because then they have to meet all the other things, and so that gives some of them a sense of failure as a person. Like my son--
  • [00:24:37] DONALD HARRISON: Did you see the kids do better, after they were going to new schools, were they improving? Were they doing better or no?
  • [00:24:46] DOROTHY SLAY: Some of them probably to a certain extent. But their life, what had happened to them in Jones School, it followed them. So many kids destroyed in the Ann Arbor public school system. A lot of children, when you go back over the years, I heard a lot of them talking about, they had a special area in Pioneer High School for kids, a classroom that was called D210. Those children when sat there, instead of being taught, you've got the resources of the university which is a big educational system, but they didn't bring it and make sure. You're in Ann Arbor so you've got to help us be a part of developing the best school system to give these kids an opportunity to survive in society. A lot of these kids, because of the situation, they grew up starting with Jones School on up, they didn't believe in themselves, they thought they couldn't. They was taken from one bad situation and not even held back because they couldn't repeat that class, but continued to go on and tell them all about these falsehoods instead of telling them, "You've got to be able to do this and that and move on." That builds them up to be better people and love themselves. So many kids died around Ann Street, in Ann Arbor, which is only a few blocks from Jones School. They was destroyed emotionally and physically.
  • [00:26:57] DONALD HARRISON: Closing the school and busing kids was one thing, but that wasn't the whole picture of what was wrong and what needed to happen. Did you feel like your friends, the other families in that neighborhood, were they fighting the closure of Jones School or did they think it was a bad thing? Was it mixed feelings? Do you feel pretty much everyone--
  • [00:27:23] DOROTHY SLAY: I really didn't hear no push against. There were some people who was against the closing of it. But I myself never talked to or discussed with other people the closing of Jones School. Because I think the way I got it, the way it came back to me that most of the people said that they need to close it. Because the children, a lot of them were not getting what you expect from your school system. That's what you support it for is to make sure. Educators have never been paid badly. When I was a little kid, we'd say, oh they're a teacher they looked like they did not only but what they done. Because they were able to make a living. For a lot of the people around them. They didn't get to the point. Even the children they taught, that they could make a living by getting a good education. They were left to drift and a lot of them drifted into horrible situations, losing their lives and dying because they didn't have no faith and they didn't believe in themselves. That comes from when you have nobody to tell you and let you know that you are somebody and I'm with you, we're going to get over this. You can get through that. No such thing as a child can't learn. Because as I have seen, and as you come forward to where I believe that you're born with the ability to learn. We as a people as communities, we have the situation that we need to be able to make sure that they get that. I finish high school here in Ann Arbor, but I went on in college and I cannot tell you how many classes of opportunities I had to learn and to venture into so many areas. I was involved with, like I said, community campaigns and working to try to make a difference.
  • [00:30:23] DONALD HARRISON: Sorry to interrupt you.
  • [00:30:24] DOROTHY SLAY: That's okay.
  • [00:30:26] DONALD HARRISON: I just wanted to check with your time too.
  • [00:30:29] CURTIS DAVIS: Yeah, we're pushing it.
  • [00:30:31] DONALD HARRISON: So I'll ask maybe one last question. In terms of you seeing Ann Arbor changed from the early 60s and you're still in that same house, that same neighborhood. I guess I'd be curious in what ways things have changed for the better in many ways, like Civil Rights Act [BACKGROUND] was happening in this era and [BACKGROUND] the ways in which it was still segregated here, less so than Kentucky, but it still was happening here. The city opened up, right, it was these few neighborhoods that was pretty much if you're Black, that was where you were safe and where you were allowed to buy a house? So things opened up. But then it sounds like again, in some ways that's good and other ways maybe there was something lost. If you look back on the changes in the last 50 years, in what ways is it better, and in what ways has it gotten maybe worse?
  • [00:31:30] DOROTHY SLAY: As things change, some things stay the same. Some things I feel have changed for the better. But I also see, living where I live in Kerrytown area, it's like instead of me being a part of all the positive building--people being able to take some of the housing that was just falling apart and they been able to build up, some of the work or the things they got to improve the property--in some ways, like, you're still here, but you're only here because you were here long before. I started to feel like I stick out a sore thumb on the corner. You're really not a part of this change, you're here because you're here and you've been here. But you're not a part of this new vibrance. Everybody mostly has money that is moving in. But you wouldn't be here. I know I have met a few people who are bad because it's just like we're letting you sit here. Because this is what's going on, this is a new thing. But you really not a part of it. If I sit on the porch and sometimes they are friendly. I used to know all my neighbors. All of them. But now I don't know all of them. I don't know [NOISE] half of them. But a few people, they make you-- Because I'm not one of them now. I was much more involved in the neighborhood as a person that was living there. But now I feel like, I'm just there. It's just like I'm sitting here. Because I'm like, what do you call them? What are the stones they used to sell out to mark something? [LAUGHTER] I don't feel like I'm a part of it.
  • [00:35:02] DONALD HARRISON: As the changes were happening in the 70s and 80s, as it was becoming known as Kerrytown, did you feel part of it back then, that happening?
  • [00:35:13] DOROTHY SLAY: Since the change started in well, like I said, it really started in the 70s. I saw a lot of the old neighbors move, or whatever. Some of them passed away, and a lot of children that had access to maybe those buildings, they didn't have the interest because I even heard them say, they considered that old housing. Everybody that's up there not living better or getting better. They either walked away or they just forgot and then since the change had come, now it's Kerrytown. It used to be Fourth Ave or some other name. But it had no real [BACKGROUND] positive identity.
  • [00:36:29] DONALD HARRISON: What did people referred to it? I know--
  • [00:36:32] CURTIS DAVIS: West Side.
  • [00:36:33] DONALD HARRISON: Right. It wasn't the Old West Side, just West Side.
  • [00:36:35] CURTIS DAVIS: West Side.
  • [00:36:36] DOROTHY SLAY: But I never, because our area where we live is North Central. It's the North Central area.
  • [00:36:45] DONALD HARRISON: You were at Beakes, which was at some point going to be the freeway, right?
  • [00:36:50] DOROTHY SLAY: They had talked about doing a lot of them. Extending Pontiac Trail and going--but I don't know what they're doing. It is just so much building.
  • [00:37:06] DONALD HARRISON: Were you involved in stopping the Beakes bypass?
  • [00:37:11] DOROTHY SLAY: I was involved in so many-- Model Cities was a part of that change they were trying to do, trying to make. Model Cities and the revenue sharing. It was a lot of things taking place at that time because of the political arena. I was doing, was that Johnson or was that Nixon? That area, it was in '77? Anyway, I saw the changed from '72 to the late 70's, I don't remember, I'll just say that. Because a lot of the drugs were hitting all around in the neighborhood. So it was just like everything just said, "Stop. We don't care." There was no interest. Then, I'm trying to think, then all of a sudden, boom. They're interested, they started thinking about how we changed. We had to buy the old slaughterhouse, not the slaughterhouse, it was Lansky's Junkyard was run between Fourth and Fifth and Depot Street. Lansky's Junkyard, and we had to pay. I was living on Fourth and they had to be paid so much to move it to Main. They moved Lansky's Junkyard out on Main from down there. Then the slaughterhouse was down there before, well, I hadn't moved there. They must have gotten rid of the slaughterhouse just before we moved there. But the area was considered-- The school system, nobody cared because you've got a slaughterhouse, junkyard, poor people. So Jones School was just, they ran it, but the educators, the way they thought about it, I'm talking about the city and the councilmen, whatever, that was involved in the political system. So Jones School was just a part of the, what did they call it? The slums. But it has changed. It is changed. But you no longer have your Black community there that was going to Jones School. We were just, like I said, with my son being in his 60s and I'm in my 70s and I moved there when I was just 19, 20. I am still there. The only reason I'm there is because I'm there and I just decided to stay. Now a person at my level of income can't afford to move there, where I'm at and that's why I said the reason I'm there is because I have been there, otherwise, I could not survive, now, I wouldn't be able to survive. So Jones School would have been just, like I said, a memory.
  • [00:41:28] DONALD HARRISON: I know time is short. Is there any last thing, Dorothy, that you wanted to share? Again, I know that we could probably talk for hours, but I just keep wanting to know more. Is there anything else that, as we tell the story of Jones as best we can through your voices, people who were there at the time, is there anything that you really would want younger people to know about that neighborhood and about that school and about that story? [NOISE]
  • [00:42:04] DOROTHY SLAY: Well, the only thing I want to say, even though you look back, and you say, "Oh, I want to forget about that, I want to forget about the past.'' The past to me, for us, don't forget it. Don't forget your roots. Where you come from. Make it a little point, because it's what helps build character and gives you a better sense of your life, your people and to be able to stand up and say, "I am somebody." Because I did not come from the good, sweet and all those positive things that able to walk and stand up right and say that you are better. You're better than the best. You cannot go wrong by growing from that. That you come from and that you fight for the right to be able to identify and be a part of a better world. You have to work hard. You have to think hard, you have live hard. But you can come to a better place in life if you don't forget that.