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There Went The Neighborhood - Audio Interview: Richard Payne

When: July 23, 2021

Richard Payne attended Jones School until fifth or sixth grade, when he was bused to Pattengill Elementary School due to the closure of Jones. He remembers white parents and their children protesting with racist signs on the first day of classes, and being disciplined unfairly.

More interviews are available in the There Went The Neighborhood Interview Archive.

Transcript

  • [00:00:01] HEIDI MORSE: Today is July 23rd, 2021. I'm Heidi Morse, an archivist at the Ann Arbor District Library, and I'm speaking with Richard Payne about Jones School in Ann Arbor. Could you please say and spell your name?
  • [00:00:18] RICHARD PAYNE: Richard, R-I-C-H-A-R-D, Payne, P-A-Y-N-E.
  • [00:00:27] HEIDI MORSE: Around what time and where did you grow up as a child?
  • [00:00:32] RICHARD PAYNE: Well, I grew up in Ann Arbor. I'll give my address; 347 Beakes Street. I was born in 1955, so I probably went to Jones in early '60s, preschool, wherever that is.
  • [00:01:00] HEIDI MORSE: Did your parents move to Ann Arbor? Did they live there their whole lives?
  • [00:01:05] RICHARD PAYNE: No, they up came up from Union City, Tennessee.
  • [00:01:07] HEIDI MORSE: Do you know around what time?
  • [00:01:13] RICHARD PAYNE: I'm not sure what year they came up. I would say probably in the '40s.
  • [00:01:28] HEIDI MORSE: Were they working?
  • [00:01:30] RICHARD PAYNE: Yes, my dad worked at Buhr Machine Tool company, and I think my mom was working at St. Joe Hospital, the old St. Joe.
  • [00:01:45] HEIDI MORSE: What work did she do there?
  • [00:01:48] RICHARD PAYNE: I think she was a nurse's aid or something like that.
  • [00:01:57] HEIDI MORSE: Did you you have siblings?
  • [00:01:59] RICHARD PAYNE: Yes, there was eight of us. Five sisters and two other brothers. [NOISE]
  • [00:02:12] HEIDI MORSE: Thinking back on your childhood, what stands out to you just about your family life, the neighborhood, any particular memories that you'd like to share?
  • [00:02:26] RICHARD PAYNE: Let's see. Neighborhood was a good neighborhood. It took a village to raise a child back then. Everybody in the neighborhood was able to, I'm not going to say punish the children, but talking to children. What's the word I'm trying to say? Discipline children.
  • [00:03:06] HEIDI MORSE: So your parents would know about it if you had misbehaved?
  • [00:03:13] RICHARD PAYNE: Yes. I can give you example here. One day on my way to school and was walking across these logs and went and flipped over it, and a bunch of bees came up, so I had bee stings all over me. But I continued to go to school, and the nurse sent me home. On the way home, I think it was Mrs. Owen was the first one that see me. She knew I was supposed to be in school, so I got a spanking for not being in school from her. I left her and I'm still on my way home, and I think I ran into Mrs. McFadden then, and I got a spanking from her. Then right around the corner, right at the street from my house, I got a spanking from her, all these for not being in school. When I got home, my grandmother, she knew that I wasn't in school, so I got a spanking from her. She patched up my bee stings and sent me back to school.
  • [00:04:23] HEIDI MORSE: [LAUGHTER] Do you remember how old you were?
  • [00:04:32] RICHARD PAYNE: I'm going to say I was about 6 or 7.
  • [00:04:39] HEIDI MORSE: This is on your way to Jones School?
  • [00:04:42] RICHARD PAYNE: On my way to Jones School. Matter of fact, there was a market there called Diroff's Market that catered to the whole neighborhood. He had everything that people in the neighborhood like to eat. Despite hidden, but he didn't see me. [LAUGHTER] It's now called Zingerman's Deli. Back in the day it was Diroff's.
  • [00:05:10] HEIDI MORSE: Same location?
  • [00:05:15] RICHARD PAYNE: Same location. What do we have in the neighborhood? We had a packing house down at the park that we played at. Summit Park, there was a packing house there. I remember going down just about once a week. There was a guy down there that cooked up the cracklins down there. The guy would hand some out to the window to take home to our parents. Uncle Bennie, I think, that was his name. He did the cracklin stuff, take home to that, so he could make cracklin bread. But by the time we got them home, we done ate about just all of them. [LAUGHTER] Like I said, it was a good neighborhood, but it's changed now. It's definitely changed now. [OVERLAPPING]
  • [00:06:25] HEIDI MORSE: Go ahead.
  • [00:06:31] RICHARD PAYNE: My life got saved by a hobo down there on the railroad tracks. Do you know where the railroad depot is? I think they had maybe 4 or 5 tracks and that went through there and they had a switch track there. My mom always told me, don't go down there playing down in the railroad tracks. I went down there anyway, and my foot get caught in the switch tracks, and a train would coming at the time. One of the hobos, Hobo Charlie, he see me, grab me, and what he did was he untied my shoe and left my shoe in the track, but pulled me away from the train. Just about every day, mom would cook dinner, and I'd sneak out the house with a plate, and I'd take it down that and see Hobo Charlie. He slept and lived in one of the old train cars down there.
  • [00:07:37] HEIDI MORSE: Wow, that's really scary.
  • [00:07:41] RICHARD PAYNE: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] I know not to go down there and play anymore. I learned that lesson. [LAUGHTER] I'd always go down and take Hobo Charlie a plate though. Then we had a little field right next to the lumber yard that was right there. They had a pear tree in the middle of it, and we would play football there. Matter of fact, it wasn't really a field, there was a house there and it was in the backyard of that house. We'd go down and we go over there and play football. We call it Pear Tree University. [LAUGHTER] I guess that's because that's the only university that we knew at the time. [LAUGHTER]
  • [00:08:39] HEIDI MORSE: Was that just pick-up football?
  • [00:08:44] RICHARD PAYNE: Yeah. Just little kids in the neighborhood. We played baseball at Summit Park. We tried to hit the ball up on top of the packing house. Whoever hit the ball on top of the packing house, that was a home run, but somebody had to climb up there to get the ball because that's probably was the only ball we had. We didn't have skateboards, we didn't have sleds or toboggans or nothing like that. We would get old pair roller skates, two-by-four. Nail the roller skates to two-by-four, and that was our skateboard.
  • [00:09:33] HEIDI MORSE: I would have never thought that.
  • [00:09:37] RICHARD PAYNE: Neither any of us. [LAUGHTER] We did it. I don't think Summit Park had a basketball hoop. We used to go up to a friend of ours or he came by his house and he played basketball on his backyard. We didn't have your regular basketball with the net, we had a bushel basket. That was our hoop.
  • [00:10:06] HEIDI MORSE: Okay. That's great detail that you remember.
  • [00:10:18] RICHARD PAYNE: Yeah. That's stuff I can't forget because I'd say we didn't have too many things to play with around we had to create things like me and my friend, friend of mine, Janet Brown. We go over to the jump yard, there was a jump yard across from the packing house. We go over there and you get these little ball bearing type thing, not round. Almost like what do you call it? Washers. That's what they were, washers. We'd throw them, he'd be at one end of the park, I'm at the other end of the park, just thrown them up in the air. He threw one and it hit me across the eyebrow and cut me. I went home and dad pushed together and strap some tape on it, told me, "Go back down and do it again". I go back down there we throwing them again and one hits me across the other eyebrow. Dad didn't mean for me to actually go down and do it but I went down there and do it again. He pushed together and strap some tape on it and then I got spanking for that because he really didn't want me to go back down there and do it again [LAUGHTER]
  • [00:11:46] HEIDI MORSE: Sounds like you were a bit stubborn.
  • [00:11:47] RICHARD PAYNE: A little bit. Like I said, we had to create things to do. We were at 347 Beakes and I think a next door neighbor was 349 right there on the corner and Beakes and Summit. After the rain, we had like a porch that went around the house. We would make mud pies. We created a game out of that too, we throw mud pies at each other, but unfortunately for us, we were throwing at them into the yard. They were throwing them at us along side of the house. Got mud pies all over the house, mud pies all over the porch. We got a spanking for that. [LAUGHTER] We were busy little kids. Like I said, we created a lot of things to do.
  • [00:12:57] HEIDI MORSE: Now, you said you attended Jones School in the early sixties. Do your remember what grades you were in?
  • [00:13:07] RICHARD PAYNE: Yeah, I think I went to Jones up until I was in the-- Our house caught on fire. We moved over by the Tappan area. I ended up going to Tappan. So probably up until sixth grade. That's when they had sixth or seventh graders going to Tappan.
  • [00:13:30] HEIDI MORSE: Okay.
  • [00:13:30] RICHARD PAYNE: But before that, that's when they bussed us out to Pattengill. That might have been in fifth grade, I think. I'm not sure.
  • [00:13:45] HEIDI MORSE: Okay.
  • [00:13:48] RICHARD PAYNE: Bussed the kids out of Jones school. Had something to do with integration or segregation. Now, you were going to ask me could I what?
  • [00:14:05] HEIDI MORSE: Could you describe a typical day at Jones School?
  • [00:14:13] RICHARD PAYNE: Let's see. We did our learning. Pretty much just go to school and do school stuff and then come back home and do your chores
  • [00:14:26] HEIDI MORSE: Are there any teachers, or coaches, or other staff members who stand out in your memory?
  • [00:14:34] RICHARD PAYNE: No, I can't remember them. Like I said, we were bussed out of there. They did the integration or segregation or whatever they were doing.
  • [00:14:54] HEIDI MORSE: What do you remember about the closure of Jones when you say when you were bussed out to Pattengill?
  • [00:15:04] RICHARD PAYNE: All I remember is that I'm not sure who made the decision or anything or if the parents were behind it and everything, but all I remember is that the following school year, I was going to a different school.
  • [00:15:28] HEIDI MORSE: How was that transition for you?
  • [00:15:32] RICHARD PAYNE: For me it wasn't that good. Because the first day experience was when we got off the bus, I guess back then I was trying to figure out how the Black kids will adapt to going to a white school, but it was actual whole reversal because the white kids didn't really adapt to the Black kids coming into their school. Matter of fact, I remember the first day when we got off the bus, there was white parents out there with signs saying, N word, we don't want you here N word, go home, and all that other good stuff. But I pretty much was fighting every day. Matter of fact, one of my classes, my class pretty much took that up in the hallway. The teacher would come out to the hallway, put my desk in the hallway, and she would come out with my assignments and then she go back in and teach the class. [NOISE] I got to remember the guy's name. I used to fight with all the time I think is Martin Love (phonetic). [LAUGHTER].
  • [00:16:56] HEIDI MORSE: What was that last name?
  • [00:16:57] RICHARD PAYNE: Love.
  • [00:17:02] HEIDI MORSE: Okay. Did you get the sense that you were treated differently for fighting than white students?
  • [00:17:14] RICHARD PAYNE: Yeah. Like I said, I had to do my class in the hallway.
  • [00:17:18] HEIDI MORSE: Okay, and he did not?
  • [00:17:20] RICHARD PAYNE: He did not. Like I said, I she would come out with my assignment then go back there.
  • [00:17:34] HEIDI MORSE: In terms of academics, did you feel prepared for the schools you attended after Jones?
  • [00:17:43] RICHARD PAYNE: I thought. I guess, you know prior to going to junior high and high school, that was all right. The elementary school wasn't, that was quite an experience. [LAUGHTER]
  • [00:18:14] HEIDI MORSE: Now, who were your classmates at Pattengill when you were bussed out? Were you in classes with any former Jones' student?
  • [00:18:33] RICHARD PAYNE: I'm not really sure. I think I was, because I think they only sent a certain amount of students to different school that they'd bussed them to. Pattengill might have only got 30 of us. I remember, John Allen was one of the schools that some of the kids got bussed to. Pattengill, John Allen, [BACKGROUND] that's on my neighborhood. I think the, the Mials, I remember riding on the bus with the Mials and the Joneses, the Bryants. Yeah. But I'm not sure for a fact, Jones class with me. [NOISE] I think they pretty much just took the kids that lived on Beakes Street and I think part of Summit, they went to Pattengill. While on the other side of Summit, I think they went to John Allen, because I remember, I think the Bakers went to John Allen even though they were less than a block away from us, [NOISE] I think Beakes Street, I think on the east side of Beakes. I was staying on the west side of Beakes. I'm thinking that we all went to Pattengill.
  • [00:20:41] HEIDI MORSE: Okay.
  • [00:20:43] RICHARD PAYNE: I don't know if any of them went to Mack or not. I think that some of them that lived in a Mack areas, they stayed in the Mack area. [OVERLAPPING].
  • [00:20:58] HEIDI MORSE: Oh, go ahead.
  • [00:21:00] RICHARD PAYNE: The Blacks that lived on the other side of that bridge, Broadway Bridge. I think they all went to Northside and [inaudible 00:21:05] I think. I don't know. I'm not sure because I don't think the parents really agreed to the busing issue. I think Mr. Wheeler made that decision. [LAUGHTER]
  • [00:21:37] HEIDI MORSE: I see. The parents, you said you weren't necessarily sure if they supported or opposed the closure of Jones, but they overall did not like the busing plan?
  • [00:21:52] RICHARD PAYNE: Right. From what I remember, yeah.
  • [00:21:56] HEIDI MORSE: I'm thinking back to your education at Ann Arbor Schools through junior high and high school, what impact do you think that experience of being bussed out to different schools had on you and your former classmates?
  • [00:22:28] RICHARD PAYNE: Like I said, our house got caught on fire, so I had to move out to the Tappan area. As far as that Jones School area, I kind of moved away from it.
  • [00:22:45] HEIDI MORSE: Okay.
  • [00:22:45] RICHARD PAYNE: Me and my brother would ride our bikes back over of, so I'm thinking street because it's known, but it's off back when we stayed in that area. We'd ride our bikes back in the area because we played baseball and we would ride our bikes back over to play baseball then we'd ride back up that way. But I got acclimated to when we moved out to the Tappan area, I was pretty much in an all white neighborhood. I used to hang out with [Bakes?]. I don't know if you know anything about [inaudible 00:23:35] one of them played football for U of M and the other one I think he's got an insurance business or something like that. Then in high school, I think we moved from the Tappan area back to the north side of Ann Arbor.
  • [00:24:02] HEIDI MORSE: What was that like for you?
  • [00:24:05] RICHARD PAYNE: It was pretty good. I noticed stuff when growing up, when that downtown area was being bought out or sold out to the city or to the University, whoever bought it all out. I know that they built areas for the Black people to live in: Arrowwood, Hikone, North Maple, South Maple, that's where a lot of the Black people that lived down in the Beakes Street area, down in downtown area, they all either lost their houses in taxes, or whatever, but those were the areas that they put them in.
  • [00:25:02] HEIDI MORSE: Do you remember any examples of how that played out for families that you knew?
  • [00:25:12] RICHARD PAYNE: A lot of crime. The area wasn't really "policed" a lot. I guess it was mainly for low-income people or whatever. Low-income housing.
  • [00:25:41] HEIDI MORSE: Do you remember any discussions about urban renewal in Ann Arbor?
  • [00:25:45] RICHARD PAYNE: No, I don't. What was that about, the urban renewal?
  • [00:26:00] HEIDI MORSE: Basically discussions about renovating the Kerrytown area. There was a proposal that ultimately didn't go through for a Packard-Beakes bypass that I believe the city started to buy homes from folks, but then it was for that plan that never materialized. I'm just asking that to hear if anyone I'm speaking to has more memories about what happened there.
  • [00:26:43] RICHARD PAYNE: No. Only thing I really remember about the Kerrytown area because there's farmers market there. We used to use that area for our drill team; French Dukes. It had a good echo; when you stomp your boots, you can get that echo [LAUGHTER].
  • [00:27:12] HEIDI MORSE: Were you part of the French Dukes?
  • [00:27:16] RICHARD PAYNE: Yeah. I was actually in the Junior Dukes. I never did make it to the big guys.
  • [00:27:35] HEIDI MORSE: That's great. It's really an interesting part of Ann Arbor history.
  • [00:27:41] RICHARD PAYNE: Yeah. From French Dukes because we were all over the place. I know I've been to Washington with them, and where else did we go? I did a lot of drilling with Inner City in Detroit. I don't know if we went to Chicago, I'm not sure.
  • [00:28:07] HEIDI MORSE: How old were you when you were participating?
  • [00:28:11] RICHARD PAYNE: In the Dukes?
  • [00:28:13] HEIDI MORSE: In the Dukes.
  • [00:28:15] RICHARD PAYNE: Eight, 9, 10.
  • [00:28:28] HEIDI MORSE: What interested you about being part of the Dukes?
  • [00:28:37] RICHARD PAYNE: The chance to hang out with my friends. Something to do because we would go up to the Elks and perform in front of the people at the Elks. Am not sure if the Elks actually sponsored us. I'm not sure, I think they did.
  • [00:29:17] HEIDI MORSE: Does anything else stand out to you about Jones School or that neighborhood when you were growing up that you'd like to share?
  • [00:29:26] RICHARD PAYNE: I kind of hated to see it go, but when they turned it into Community High--I know my nephew went there at Community High. I don't know if my son went there or not. If he did, it was for a brief moment. That and just the change in the whole neighborhood; how they took all the houses that we used to live in and turn them into, seems like million dollar mansions, [LAUGHTER] if you go through there now.
  • [00:30:26] HEIDI MORSE: Do you have a sense of the reasons behind why that happened or how it happened?
  • [00:30:34] RICHARD PAYNE: I think it was in the plan a long time ago because I think they really didn't want the Blacks in that area. What do they call it now? The Watershed area or something like that.
  • [00:30:53] HEIDI MORSE: Water Hill.
  • [00:30:57] RICHARD PAYNE: Water Hill. There was a lot of stuff that went on down there. I remember my mom sending me up on Ann Street to tell my dad that she wanted him to come home. Right there crossing the courthouse on Ann Street there, it was a barbershop, pool hall, and a bunch of different things. I would go into the pool hall; my dad from the back part of it. There were guys back there shooting dice and stuff. I would go up there and I think I might have been six or seven. I'd go up to him and I'd tell dad, mom wants you. He'd reach in his pocket, give me some money and I'd take it home to mom and she's happy as a lark, and he's still shooting crap. What it was she just didn't want him to lose his paycheck. He had me laughing one day I heard him and he was shooting crap, and he was going like, papa need a new pair of shoes. I thought to myself, I said it was eight of them. I was like, papa needs eight new pairs of shoes. [LAUGHTER]
  • [00:32:25] HEIDI MORSE: Do you remember what that pool hall was named?
  • [00:32:29] RICHARD PAYNE: No, I really don't. I think I remember Rosey's Barbershop and that's about it. When I was a kid, I wasn't really allowed up there unless my mom, like I said, sent me up there to get me to get dad, and that was it [LAUGHTER]. Yes. I do remember going to DeLong's Bar-B-Q a lot. Then McCoy's market was on Main Street. Then there was another little market down on Main Street, it was called Al's. We would go down there to get our lunches. We'd go down and they'd cook us up some sandwiches and stuff. When I got lunch, we'd go to school from there sometimes.
  • [00:33:43] HEIDI MORSE: These are great memories. I'm just really grateful that you've shared your time with us and we've been able to record your memories of Jones School and this neighborhood. Thank you so much.
  • [00:34:00] RICHARD PAYNE: Well, if I can think of anything else, I will call you back.