Legacies Project Oral History: Joan Berman

Mon, 08/29/2022 - 11:59am

When: 2022

Transcript

[00:00:09] Joan Berman: I don't think so.
[00:00:11] FEMALE_1: What is your marital status?
[00:00:14] Joan Berman: I'm on my own. I live by myself. I'm divorced.
[00:00:19] FEMALE_1: How many children do you have?
[00:00:21] Joan Berman: I have raised six children.
[00:00:24] FEMALE_1: How many siblings do you have?
[00:00:26] Joan Berman: Just one. He was one of the children I raised. He's a lot younger than I am.
[00:00:33] FEMALE_1: What would you consider your primary occupation to have been?
[00:00:37] Joan Berman: School teacher.
[00:00:39] FEMALE_1: At what age did you retire?
[00:00:42] Joan Berman: Seventy.
[00:00:46] FEMALE_1: Now we can begin first part of our interview beginning with some of the things you can recall about your family history. We're beginning with family naming history. By this we mean any story about your last or family name or family traditions in selecting first or middle names. Do you know any stories about your family name?
[00:01:06] Joan Berman: Yes, I do. My maiden name was Lieberman. Lieberman is a name that was given to people who were fleeing from parts of the Soviet Union and fled to Austria first and that's where the family name which was Pastaneck disappeared and became Lieberman, L-I-E-B-E-R means loved one in German and M-A-N was the warning sign that this was a Jewish person. That's one side of the family. The other side of the family was oppression from Alsace-Lorraine. My mother's maiden name was [inaudible 00:01:47] . I'm named after her and my name would be Johanna Margarita. But I call myself Joan Margaret.
[00:01:58] FEMALE_1: Are there any naming traditions in your family?
[00:02:01] Joan Berman: Anyone what?
[00:02:02] FEMALE_1: Any naming traditions?
[00:02:03] Joan Berman: No.
[00:02:05] FEMALE_1: Why did your ancestors leave to come to the United States?
[00:02:09] Joan Berman: Well, one had to do with programs and the other side had to do with, I'm not sure to tell you the truth. My mother's parents came. I'm not sure. He was a doctor there in Prussia and he was a doctor here in outside Chicago. My father didn't come to this country until probably he was about 18. A lot of that may have had to do with the depression years and the coming depression. But it wasn't there yet. But I'd say that most of the family came just to have a better life. It look good here, maybe the streets really were paved of gold.
[00:02:52] FEMALE_1: Do you know any stories about how your family first came to the United States and where they first settled?
[00:03:02] Joan Berman: I have to say that, I don't know that people sat around and talked about G when I got on the boat. I don't remember much of that, but I do know that one day I got curious and I found my grandfather's name on some boat coming to this country and they all ended at Ellis Island. They didn't fly. Somehow they all came on a boat. Pretty much started in New York and then migrated to Chicago. That's where actually both families ended. I should add to that. Probably my mother's family settled in Barrington, Illinois because that was an old German community. They spoke German, the kids knew German as well as English and a lot of people came to this country and lived where people were like they were at home. Same food, same language. We now know like that. But at the time, that's what people did.
[00:03:59] FEMALE_1: How did they make a living either in the old country or in the United States?
[00:04:04] Joan Berman: My father was in the furniture business. His father was a cabinet maker in Russia. That's like a skilled trades. My other side of the family one was a doctor and in this country it was a horse and buggy doctor, and my grandmother taught opera.
[00:04:24] FEMALE_1: Describe any family migration once they arrived in the US and how they came to live in this area.
[00:04:31] Joan Berman: You know they all stayed put, pretty much all stayed put. I think we weren't close. We didn't have family reunions and get togethers, but people stayed close.
[00:04:46] FEMALE_1: What possessions did they bring with them and why?
[00:04:49] Joan Berman: I have no idea. None. The only thing I know is that there is a barometer that somehow my father had that says made in England and I can't think of a thing that's been passed down that came from another country.
[00:05:11] FEMALE_1: Which family members came along or stayed behind?
[00:05:17] Joan Berman: I couldn't answer that. I only know the immediate ones.
[00:05:22] FEMALE_1: To your knowledge, do they make an effort to preserve any traditions or customs from their country of origin?
[00:05:29] Joan Berman: Not for long. Some Christmas celebrations on my mother's side of the family. When they came to this country, they were still German. He still cooked the goose and the grease on dark bread. Some of my father's family, my father wasn't religious, but he had uncles that were and they still preserved Jewish traditions, kept kosher houses. But as time went by it wasn't really Fiddler on the Roof. They really didn't save a lot of it.
[00:06:03] FEMALE_1: Are their traditions that your family has given up or changed?
[00:06:08] Joan Berman: Not anymore than I just mentioned.
[00:06:12] FEMALE_1: What stories have come down to you about your parents and grandparents, more distant ancestors?
[00:06:19] Joan Berman: Lot of it is political. I just happened to grow up in a family that they were always political. I kept my early memories. I was sitting at a table with my lips zipped and listening. You have to realize putting it in content, these are people who came from one place and we're concerned with war and what was going on there and what was going on here. That and music. Actually both sides. Lots of music, lots of reading, and stories.
[00:06:57] FEMALE_1: Do you know any courtship stories? How did your parents, grandparents, and other relatives come to meet and marry?
[00:07:05] Joan Berman: This probably you may want to edit out. My grandfather had five wives, no divorces. He just lived till he was 98. My father was born on the English Channel and his mother died shortly afterwards. So he was raised by, I think that was probably wife number two. Then that wife went to the United States with the grandfather and my father stayed with somebody else and then she died. That was probably the biggest family story I know. Said it was okay to have five wives and they all seem to live happily ever after and the last one got it all. [NOISE]
[00:07:56] FEMALE_1: Today's interview is about your childhood up until you begin attending school. Even if these questions jog memories about other times in your life, please only respond with memories from this earliest part of your life. Where did you grow up, and what are your strongest memories of that place?
[00:08:17] Joan Berman: I grew up in the start place called Lake Forest, Illinois. Lake Forest, Illinois is a fancy schmancy community. It is now, was then. I probably lived there until I was about three. My memories of that have to do less. I have to be careful because they are photographs, and those aren't my memories. I see the photo, and oh, yes. But my memories of Lake Forest have pretty much to do with smells, my grandmother baked every Saturday. All the bread, all the cookies for the whole week. There's no going to the store to buy bread. It wasn't like she was Julia child. That was her task. My memories are of that smell. Every time I smell bread, that's probably one of my earliest memories. The other one is just the fall. I was out the other day at the track picking up walnuts and hickory nuts, and I thought, oh deja vu, earliest memory of my mother and I outdoors. That evoked memories. I'd say my earliest memories before school probably involved sounds and smells. I couldn't specifically say much more than that. If you're asking just before school starts, if you're asking when I was four, is that count as this early? Yeah. My report card would have told you. It said Joan has a very bright little girl, but and this will be a thread with me. She oftentimes, find humor in situations that are not particularly funny. I still have that sense of humor. My memories evoke funny things that people did [LAUGHTER] that probably, I wasn't supposed to laugh. That would be my earliest idea of memories.
[00:10:26] FEMALE_1: How did your family come to live there?
[00:10:30] Joan Berman: I think my father thought it would be a nice place to live. We only lived there until I was five. Then we move to Chicago in the city. Probably, my real memory start there. That's real school.
[00:10:46] FEMALE_1: What was your house like?
[00:10:48] Joan Berman: It was all one story. It was made out of white bricks. It had three bedrooms. It had a big screened in back porch. It had a tiny little eating space off the dining room and the kitchen, and it looked like something out of the 1930s magazines. My father wanted to be an architect, and he designed that. Then war came, so we left.
[00:11:15] FEMALE_1: How many people lived in the house with you when you were growing up?
[00:11:20] Joan Berman: Until I was five, just my mother and father, and dogs.
[00:11:28] FEMALE_1: What languages were spoken in or around your household?
[00:11:31] Joan Berman: I could speak German and French. I could speak a little Yiddish, a little Russian, but I spoke English. Everybody spoke English.
[00:11:43] FEMALE_1: Were different languages spoken in different settings, such as at home, in the neighborhood or in local stores?
[00:11:50] Joan Berman: If we move to Chicago, which like I said, three, age 4 or 5, then I literally spent a lot of time living with my grandmother who lived in Chicago. She spoke German only because she didn't want me to understand what she was going to tell my mother that I had done wrong that day. I learned German in self-defense, I think. But I thought I could speak it. I spoke enough. I took German in college, and I gave it up. [LAUGHTER] Now, I don't speak it.
[00:12:24] FEMALE_1: What was your family like when you were a child?
[00:12:34] Joan Berman: I don't know how to answer that. I thought they were fine, [LAUGHTER] because I didn't know any different. My parents, like theater. My parents used to go out dancing, and I guess, now you would call them barers. They went in the date, they were nightclubs, and they looked like 1930s, and they didn't have a babysitter, so I always went. Then I would take one dance with my father that is standing on his feet. He walks around. The rest of the time, I would have a Shirley Temple, which is non-alcoholic something. There's a childhood memory. I always fell asleep watching my parents dance, and my head on my mother's, it was a black lamb coat, and it smelled just like my mother. Never once, in all those trips, do I ever remember how I got home. I would just wake up, and I'd be in my own bed. I never, as a kid, figured that one out. I just went to sleep. I guess, you describe my parents and my childhood as pretty sophisticated. I went to operas and plays, and my parents didn't think twice about ordering. I had raw oysters when I was 2, 3. I loved sauteed chicken huts. I probably had a very sophisticated life.
[00:13:58] FEMALE_1: What was a typical day like for you in your pre-school years?
[00:14:03] Joan Berman: You have to understand. We didn't have really what you called pre-school. I went to a school [LAUGHTER] probably, so my mother was assured some time on your own. That's the one where I laughed too much. But I didn't like it much. I didn't like the restrictions of school very well. At least that one. That's all I would call my pre-school. It might be now, kindergarten. It's probably about the same age as a kindergarten, but we didn't have a kindergarten. It wasn't until I moved to Chicago when I was in first grade. That's when my real school started.
[00:14:41] FEMALE_1: What did you do with phone?
[00:14:44] Joan Berman: Played outside. Rode a bike, roller skated, hung upside down all the time. I had a swing set. I love my swing set. You have to remember, I was an only child until I was almost 15. I had a ton of imaginary friends, and I did stuff. I tried to always do the right thing, but I wandered. I rode where I wasn't supposed to sometimes. But that swing set, that was one of the best.
[00:15:17] FEMALE_1: Did you have a favorite toy? If so, who made it?
[00:15:21] Joan Berman: Well, probably the swing set. Although, I guess, in retrospect, I was very lucky. My father really didn't know much about fathering girls. I was equal opportunity. I grew up building with Lincoln Logs. I had an erector set, I had tinker toys, I also had stuffed animals. I had one doll, and I wasn't a doll player, but I liked her, Elizabeth Jane. She was a friend rather than a doll. But there was no, this is girl toy, boy toy. Going outside and playing or picking up worms or saving, some poor caterpillar and seeing, that was always open to me. That exploration. Those would be things I would count as toys per se, and probably favorite. I mean, winter it was Tinker Toys.
[00:16:21] FEMALE_1: Did you have a favorite game?
[00:16:23] Joan Berman: Sure. I still do Parcheesi. I loved Parcheesi. I'm still good at Parcheesi.
[00:16:30] FEMALE_1: Do you have a favorite book?
[00:16:35] Joan Berman: How old am I supposed to be when I'm answering that?
[00:16:38] FEMALE_1: Still early memories in childhood.
[00:16:40] Joan Berman: Yeah, it was called The Little Lamb. It was about a little lamb that wanders off, and then eventually gets back home. I think I somehow related to that. Later on I had other books I like, but I remember the Little Lamb. I could draw the pictures today.
[00:16:58] FEMALE_1: Did you buy books at the store or did you visit the library?
[00:17:05] Joan Berman: Probably both. I don't know how I got them. I mean, they just appeared.
[00:17:10] FEMALE_1: Were there any special days, events or family traditions you remember from this time?
[00:17:15] Joan Berman: No.
[00:17:19] FEMALE_1: Today we will discuss your time as a young person from about the time that school attendance typically begins in the US up until you began your professional career or work life. Did you go to preschool?
[00:17:36] Joan Berman: A form of preschool.
[00:17:39] FEMALE_1: That was your kindergarten?
[00:17:40] Joan Berman: Yeah.
[00:17:42] FEMALE_1: Did you go to elementary school?
[00:17:43] Joan Berman: Yes, I did.
[00:17:44] FEMALE_1: Where?
[00:17:45] Joan Berman: I started in Chicago, Eugene Field Elementary School. Boys went in the back door, girls went in the front door, separate. The school still is there. The sign still says boys entrance and girls entrance. They don't pay any attention to it. But I was there through fourth grade.
[00:18:06] FEMALE_1: What else do you remember about it?
[00:18:07] Joan Berman: It was wartime. It was just my mother and myself. We lived in an apartment in Chicago. School meant that she and I walked a mile and a half. Well, let's put it this way. She worked partly because she worked. I lived right on Lake Michigan, the very end, the Fawell Avenue, and we would walk. Then she would get to the elevator and she would take the L Downtown to go to work, and I would continue to Eugene Field. We were there all day because no one's at home. I always had money to buy stamps for war bonds and I still [LAUGHTER] remember most what those looked like. I could tell you everything there is about what I ate for lunch and how I did it. You'd have to ask some of the things that if you're interested in that elementary, I always stood in the back row of everything. I was very tall and very skinny, and my undershirt always hung out. You can always tell me in the pictures and I'm always the one looking the other way. That would have been me.
[00:19:14] FEMALE_1: Did you go to high school?
[00:19:15] Joan Berman: Yes. Because I left after the war. I should backtrack. I spent a year in New Orleans and a year in California. I was a Navy brat. My father went in the military. I didn't see him for four years. Between what would be kindergarten and first grade, I lived in New Orleans on base. When I came back and went to elementary school in Chicago, I liked it. I was never a crazy about school. I love to read, I love to ride. Some of the things that, it just was dull sometimes. But after the war, I lived in California for almost a year. Then we moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan. I was in fourth grade and it was probably a defining moment and changed my life. There's a moment in there that forever changed my life.
[00:20:18] FEMALE_1: Can you describe this moment?
[00:20:20] Joan Berman: Yeah. It wasn't pleasant. We had moved right before Halloween. Just before Halloween, we rented a house. We moved there, I should tell you why. Because my father came back from the war and he wanted to own a furniture business, and he thought Grand Rapids, Michigan, was the furniture capital of the world. He is a little late, but that's okay. We moved in, and my mother made me a Halloween costume out of tablecloths. I was a witch. I would only remember that because I went to school and I came home and my mother said, how was it? Because that's what everybody says. How was it? I said, fine. What did you do? We had a party. Did you learn anything? I said, what's a kike? I had never heard that word. I had no idea what that word meant and I watched my mother's reaction. She burst into tears. I didn't know what the word meant. I had grown up in that part of Chicago in Rogers Park, which is pretty much all Jewish community. But my mother was a Presbyterian, so I don't know. I just thought everybody did what I did. I did not know prejudice until that moment. I was pretty naive. That was a defining moment. I've never forgotten it and I think in the back of my head forever will always be a little bit of distrust. That song, Smiling Faces, that was huge. There were two of them in my life, that was the first one.
[00:22:00] FEMALE_1: Did you go to school or career training beyond high school?
[00:22:05] Joan Berman: I should backtrack, go to tell you. In 1952, I was going into ninth grade. I had polio, as in paralytic polio, [LAUGHTER] which is now all supposed to be gone. That was the second defining moment. I missed the first part of school because I was home and I did my rehab at Mary Free Bed Hospital and I came back to school and I had leg braces and I had crutch stuff, I was a beauty. I had braces on my legs and braces on my teeth, glasses. What a queen. I had a terrific mother who forgot to tell me that you still didn't have to sit up straight and you still had to get your homework done and that you were still the smartest, cutest thing since sliced bread, and she was lucky to have you. It probably made all the difference. But polio itself, and particularly being in Mary Free Bed was the second defining moment. The rule was, I can do this. I can walk, I will walk. I will pick myself up and do it again. I will not be afraid. I think in my later years, and my grandchildren have all written this to me. That's been my mantra. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid.
[00:23:34] FEMALE_1: Can you tell us more about school or career training beyond high school?
[00:23:39] Joan Berman: I left to go to college. I didn't know where I wanted to go. I knew I didn't want to be a school teacher. School teacher. [NOISE] I just thought, [LAUGHTER] what a dumb job. Why would I want to do that? I wanted to be maybe a brain surgeon, a banker, an architect. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I picked the college in the Midwest, Knox College, that seemed to offer me the most of what I wanted and gave me lots of money. I went off to college. I thought I would major in English. I don't really know why. But I'm telling you this because how I became a school teacher, it was always in the cards. I don't know why I didn't think of it. But I had one year, Knox College, and I met a very nice man and I married him right then, age 19. Came to Ann Arbor, Michigan. I tried to go to school and it didn't work, so I worked. Then I have to pick up my career later, but that's how I got back here. He was a Woodrow Wilson fellow. He took his scholarship and came to Ann Arbor. I've been here since, and that's 1956.
[00:25:04] FEMALE_1: Do you remember any descriptions of popular music of your youth?
[00:25:08] Joan Berman: [LAUGHTER] Sure.
[00:25:12] Joan Berman: I didn't like Elvis Presley. People will say, what was it like? The fans? No, that's not the kind of music I like. They said I had a family with music. My mother played the piano. I play the piano. She played well. I went to operas. I love Broadway Theater. I can sing every show song forever. For all those songs from South Pacific to Oklahoma to whatever. I happen to like jazz and about that time, George Shearing was one. I saw Lou. You know who Satchmo is? Louis Armstrong. I saw him in person twice. I saw Les Brown and his band of Renown. I saw Woody Herman and the Third Heard because we used to go up to a place called Fruit Pork right outside of Grand Rapids and these stars would come. It was the Big Band era. I had lots of music. I didn't listen to Snooky Lanson and Your Hit Parade and the Top Ten and Red Sails on the Sunset. I had a special collection of records which are called Black Records. That is, they were artists who weren't allowed to sing on white label, so they had their own labels. And I owned all of those. My father bought those for me. I had a great musical life. I loved the music, not the popular music of the '50s, but I loved most of the music of the '50s and on after that.
[00:26:53] FEMALE_1: Did the music have any particular dances associated with it?
[00:26:57] Joan Berman: Sure, there were two kinds. There was silly dancing and this is before the '60s and the frog and the frug and the rest. It was passed, jitterbugging, but there was a lot of movement and the other side was so close dancing that today you probably wouldn't be allowed to do that at Skyline. In fact, I know you weren't, but that was the '50s and we did it anyway. It was really close dancing.
[00:27:30] FEMALE_1: What were the popular clothing or hairstyles of this time?
[00:27:35] Joan Berman: I don't know that I was popular, but I wanted to be. Because I had polio, my mother made all of my clothes. I didn't appreciate it, but she did because she could tailor them around my braces. My favorite outfit ever through high school was a cashmere sweater. Oh my God, that was expensive. I don't know how I ever owned one, and a string of pearls and a pencil slim skirt. The skirt would be low enough, but my bobby socks would match it so you could never see what I was wearing under there. I did own a poodle skirt, one of those big wide things, but I thought that was silly. But I had the spelled look and I liked that and if I could do it again, it was simple and plain, that would be me, simple and plain.
[00:28:26] FEMALE_1: Can you describe any other fads or styles from this era?
[00:28:31] Joan Berman: Everybody else did them. I didn't have the poodle cut, hair cut. I never did that. I had braids forever. I had long braids and with polio, my hair got cut. We had to cut that because it was just too hard to wash my hair because I wasn't noble.
[00:28:51] FEMALE_1: Were there any slang terms, phrases, or words used then that aren't common in use today?
[00:28:59] Joan Berman: I don't know because I was raised to speak very careful English, so I had to be very careful not to use slang. It's because part of the goal in those days was to not let anybody know you had come to this country. You know what? Not me, I'm not off a boat. My English was pretty good. But I knew terms, but to this day, I probably didn't use a lot of those. I knew words and other languages that were just better and people didn't know those.
[00:29:42] FEMALE_1: What was a typical day like for you in this time period?
[00:29:45] Joan Berman: Which time? I'm back in high school or in college or in high school.
[00:29:51] FEMALE_1: You're in high school?
[00:29:55] Joan Berman: My later years in high school, I wasn't fond of high school, but I did everything. I worked in the theater. I was editor of the paper. I used to run but I couldn't run anymore so I ran my mouth and I was on the debate team. But I also worked. My junior and senior year, I was a secretary in insurance office, so I worked after school. But I did everything. A typical day, I've always been an early riser. Would get up early, do what I had to do. I would go to school. Sometimes I work. I went to football games. I went to track practices. I think it wasn't set in stone. I spent a lot of time. I had friends, but it wasn't as predetermined even as my own children or certainly my grandchildren or certainly you. My life wasn't driven by riding a bus to school. I didn't have a car. I grew up in the city originally, my mother didn't think that you drove people when it rains, you just put on a raincoat. I didn't have a million things set for me to do. I think I had probably an easier life.
[00:31:16] FEMALE_1: What was a typical day like for you in college?
[00:31:20] Joan Berman: When I started college, I don't think I took it very seriously. I went to classes. I liked it. I wasn't ready to work very hard. This is only one year because I went back after I was married and that's a different kind of education. But that first year of college, I went and I had a nice time. I think I had a really nice time and I sampled just controlling my own hours and own life. I didn't go crazy and go, oh my God, I'm free, I can now get Blitz every night. I didn't do that. But in Illinois, you could drink at 18, girls, not guys. That was a different life. I didn't even drink. Not much. But I would go on Friday nights with other women, all 18 and we'd leave all the guys outside. I'd have probably one beer in 4 hours, but it was different. I liked it. I got a taste of freedom.
[00:32:28] FEMALE_1: Were you involved in any activities during college besides just school?
[00:32:35] Joan Berman: Theater.
[00:32:40] FEMALE_1: Were there any special days, events or family traditions during this time, during high school or college?
[00:32:47] Joan Berman: Not really. Not that I can think of. They're regular holidays. Everybody's at Christmas and there's a tree and there's cookies, but no.
[00:32:59] FEMALE_1: Did your family have any special sayings or expressions during this time?
[00:33:06] Joan Berman: I probably could repeat one my father used to say, but I won't do that. I think there are, but if you asked me to tell you, I can't. They just pop up later and they pop up and my daughter says them. Everybody looks at her and is like, oh my goodness, I'm like my mother. But I can't tell you off hand. It'll just be something that comes up.
[00:33:36] FEMALE_1: Were there any changes in your family life during your elementary or high school years?
[00:33:41] Joan Berman: Lots. Elementary and high school was war time and polio. Those were huge changes. The final one was my own parents were divorced when I was a senior in high school. But it really wasn't a big change. My father wasn't home that much, so it really wasn't oh, the devastating thing where dad go. Actually, I said it's something my mother upset. Well, why not? Didn't make her happy, but I was not unaware of family dynamics, so those are the big changes then. A lot of changes came shortly after. Probably about the time I was in my 20s.
[00:34:29] FEMALE_1: What effects did polio and war time have on you?
[00:34:38] Joan Berman: I don't know that war time had the effect on me except because I had a politically inclined family. They talked about it. I knew a lot. I had a star in the window that meant I had people who were overseas. I didn't think that there was a submarine in Lake Michigan, although my grandfather told me there was. He said he saw it, but I didn't believe that. I knew that that phrase, wait until your father gets home I was going to get it now because fathers weren't at home. I knew if I did something that was not good, either my grandmother or my mother would take care of it immediately. I think that's something that has changed. I think war time probably told me women can do anything. There were no men, so women did the disciplining. There was no such thing as I'm a single mother, I don't know how to discipline my child. I think war time taught me a lot of strengths that women have. I think polio just added to that, that I would be able to pursue the things that I wanted, but I had to work at it and not to be afraid to work at it. I think that those are big thing. Maybe war time meant more than I thought it did.
[00:36:06] FEMALE_1: What was your father's position overseas?
[00:36:10] Joan Berman: My father was Commander-in-Chief in the Admiralty Islands. The island was Manus Island. I never forgot that. He was in the Navy. He was there for three years. He totally changed. This was a native island with people who live there. My father had a lot to do with changing the culture of another group of people and made all the women put on shirts. Years later, it wasn't Margaret Mead, but it was another anthropologists studied Manus Island. They couldn't figure out when the women there started wearing shirts. I could've told him the effect that war and the United States and this man had on a whole community was dynamic. I think that that's stuck in my head for years.
[00:37:10] FEMALE_1: Where did you say the island was?
[00:37:12] Joan Berman: In the Admiralty Islands. It's in the Northern Pacific. They're called the Admiralty Islands and this was Manus Island. I have photos from them. My father took photos and I have them at home.
[00:37:26] FEMALE_1: Which holidays did your family celebrate?
[00:37:30] Joan Berman: Well, birthdays, Christmas, Halloween, Easter. We did everything every holiday there was. Eventually we did Hanukkah. When you go to school, the school makes you celebrate. We're going to have cupcakes. Why? We're going to get out of school. Why? We did whatever the school said. But everybody, we always like presents, so any occasion was good.
[00:38:07] FEMALE_1: Has your family created some traditions and celebrations?
[00:38:11] Joan Berman: Now? My own family? Maybe we should back up because my mother died when I was 21. By that time there, I had very few family members left. Whatever traditions I brought with me, I may have spread to my children then there's some that they still do.
[00:38:42] FEMALE_1: What's special food traditions does your family have?
[00:38:49] Joan Berman: I have to say every fall, we all do it even though we say we won't. We all go apple picking and we go get pumpkins and we go get cider. I can't believe they all do that, but they still do. My daughter's children are pretty much all gone, and she does it by herself and so do I. We just continue that. Then we'll go out and get apples and that's tradition we do.
[00:39:19] FEMALE_1: Have any recipes been preserved and passed down in your family from generation to generation?
[00:39:23] Joan Berman: Yeah, there are a few. Wellness for ending. I guess I can cook apple cake, I guess an apple cake. Apple cake, apple sauce, and sour cream cookies that my grandmother made.
[00:39:43] FEMALE_1: Are there family stories connected to the preparation of special foods?
[00:39:49] Joan Berman: Not beyond that, no. [NOISE]
[00:40:01] FEMALE_1: We are not supposed to get through the whole packet in one day.
[00:40:11] Joan Berman: She said to graduate from college till 1974. No, almost 76. There's a big hiatus in their school and then tons of school after that. My college experience isn't the same. It wasn't consistently going through that. I don't know how you want to do that.
[00:40:37] FEMALE_1: What did you get your masters in?
[00:40:40] Joan Berman: I have several. One is called Community Development. I was the only female in that. It took me a year. Only female for a while and sometimes the only American-born person. Community development is a program. It's no longer a year, which is unfortunate. People from other countries send somebody to learn how to make better use of land, water resources. I set up a program in South Maple and the housing project. It was called the Pine Lake home study club. I taught women how to be assertive. Go up to that principle and complain. Don't sit there and wine at your kid is not don't wine, get up. That was my first, masters and that was the best. The second one is I have a degree in guidance and counseling which took a masters. I taught some of that at Eastern now and then I would teach a course how to do that. I worked with pretty much high-school students for a long time and I'm a different kind of therapist. Not bad, not bad. But the goal is to get through because most people just need to get through this. After a while it won't matter. Let's see, I had another masters and I was on my way to a PhD in administration and I thought, I don't want to do this. The last thing in the world I want is to be a principal in a high-school. I want to leave. I loved teaching, I loved every minute. You'll have to get to that aspect why I teach or why I taught. Just one of those born nosy people who just loves imparting knowledge it's not that I love kids, I love you. It's not that. I just think that learning is fun. I've never met one single student ever who didn't agree. It's just the way sometimes it gets handed to you like it's a bad dessert. It's not. The teaching was just natural. It's just natural. It doesn't make you popular necessarily with other teachers and it doesn't. But I certainly didn't want to be an administrator. Beside which I oftentimes find humor in situations that are funny, parents might go flying out and I tell them backup or stop. I don't know how you'll work that in, but maybe that's the Q&A thing.
[00:43:25] FEMALE_1: Were you at Eastern when it was still normal college?
[00:43:29] Joan Berman: No. I had a scholarship to the University of Michigan in 1955 and I said no, thank you. And I add one to University of Iowa. I said no, thank you. I had lots of money coming from Nox. I said, okay. I went there when I moved when I got married and moved here, I went for one semester and I didn't like being married and going to school. It wasn't college. It was just drudgery and they are all going out later and I'm going home and I was too young. Then I had my first son and then I just worked. Then I stopped working and I eventually got married to somebody else and didn't work for 14 years. And then eventually went back to school and I had to finish my undergraduate was, which was at Michigan. I did that and that I decided I wanted to be an anthropologist by that time. But that wasn't going to put bread on the table and I needed to work. I had a very good mentor who was principal at Decon Elementary. Just wanted to be a teacher. You're just good at it. I'm not easy, but everybody seems to go with the program. That led to somebody saying, Why aren't you would administrator and I didn't want to do that. You never are home. You're always out choosing. It's like being a fundraiser all the time. I didn't want to do that. I like being home with them. I wanted to be with my kids, I enjoyed their company. I gave all my material and research to a friend and he used it and he got his degree. My undergraduate degree, which is now I think the I don't know what it was a teaching, whatever it was was at University of Michigan in the School of Ed. It was just a means to and end, it was just like Wizard of Oz. I needed the piece of paper to tell everybody I was able to do this job and it worked. I really didn't learn a lot there. But I was already in my 30s, almost 40. Then I went to Eastern. I went to Michigan for the first masters. Eastern was the second masters. I liked their mindset a lot better. Most of my students, teachers came. The ones from Eastern were really good. They were very dedicated. The ones from Michigan were okay. But I won't say that I didn't tell several don't do this, find something else you like better. Most of them agreed. Thank you for saying that. I really don't like these little kids and I said, well. Education, a lot of it had to do with necessity it's like want, needs, and economics. I needed to have the piece of paper. But the one in community development wasn't. That was an education. I really learned a lot from that. The guidance and counseling one. It turned out I learned a lot more than I thought I did later. I think it depends where you are in your life, and what you're looking for, and how you approach it. That's why it's very hard for parents to understand you have to sometimes take some steps back. You have to figure this out. Now the mantra is if you don't do that, you'll never get a job. I don't know if you will or not.
[00:47:16] FEMALE_1: Was it an interesting experience being an older undergraduate student?
[00:47:25] Joan Berman: Yeah, I won't say that.
[00:47:31] Joan Berman: I don't know. I think it's hard to go back in some ways. A lot of people will go back to school later. Say, "Oh, it was so hard." They're also young. Well, I have to tell you, when I started college, DNA had not been invented. When I went back [LAUGHTER] 14 years later, oh my God, what's DNA? Thank God for young undergraduates who had just had biology. You're on high or work where they did and could help me because there was new stuff. It was definitely new stuff. I think I learned a lot. I allowed myself to learn a lot, and some of it was just say how naive are you? What do you know you walk into junior high? Their drinking fountains are lower. It's not the same. What do those people know? It's when the freshmen come in. You remember when you were a freshman and you came in? Yeah. Well, and then you look at this, now you're juniors. Those freshmen are pretty young some of them. Their voices haven't changed. Some of them look like rabbits clothed and their ears are all flat back. They're terrified of you. Well, it's the same thing. Someday there'll be there but you're pretty, you know what this job is and I think that was the difference. As far as instructors go, mostly instructors are pretty nice but sometimes not. They are pretty when you're old, what are you doing in this class? That's because I was older than the instructor. That's threatening to them and I understood that. He's going to tell me about child rearing and I got five of them sitting there at home. I'm sipping my lip because you're wrong. You've never even had a baby. How do you know? But I was scared. I tried to be really careful. Plus at the time I was married to my second husband who was chairman of the clinical site department at the U of M. I'm sure he wasn't going to let that cat out of the bag because I had to take a psych course or two and I don't want anybody think there was preconceived knowledge or whatever and I was smarter than he was anyway. I never told him. [NOISE] You took all the wrinkles out. I thought this morning, I never wear lipstick. Do I just look like some white on white toast? [NOISE] My hair is so bleached out. I looked in the mirror and I didn't know who it was. [LAUGHTER] Well, you can cut off those wrinkles. [NOISE]
[00:50:27] FEMALE_1: This set of questions covers a relatively long period of your life from the time you entered the labor force or started a family up to the present time. What was your primary field of employment?
[00:50:39] Joan Berman: I was employed as a school teacher.
[00:50:43] FEMALE_1: How did you first get started with this job?
[00:50:46] Joan Berman: I was very fortunate. I had a friend. She was the principal at Dicken Elementary School. She was a friend and she was like a mentor, and I needed to work and she needed a teacher aid in a kindergarten class. I think underneath all that, she knew what I would be good at because I certainly didn't. She encouraged me to go back to school, get my teaching degree. I did my pre-student teaching my student teaching everything else in that kindergarten and first-grade class and I became a teacher and I was certified at that point through ninth grade. The rest of it came later.
[00:51:36] FEMALE_1: What was your typical day during the working years of your adult life?
[00:51:42] FEMALE_1: Well, I'd have to say that they're always different. They're always different and they're always the same. I wake up early. I still do. But it didn't matter that I taught elementary or that I taught high school, which was probably the bulk of my working life. I always woke up eager and early and ready to start my day. I could hardly wait. I have to be honest, quite often I wrote lesson plans on my way to work. I might be running to work, I might be driving. But at the last minute, something on the news would trigger something that I really wanted to include and get opinions from students. I think I started working on it from the minute I got out of bed until I got home at night and then I could turn it off.
[00:52:38] FEMALE_1: What specific training or skills were required for your job?
[00:52:41] Joan Berman: Well, I started out just getting an undergraduate degree that said I was a teacher. I always thought it was like The Wizard of Oz. I needed that piece of paper to prove I could do this job. My mentor had told me, and I think she saw things in me that I didn't recognize that it was not about I just loved children. It was that I am a very curious person and I love to impart knowledge as well as getting new knowledge. Every degree that I got satisfied two things. One, it satisfied the state. Just like in The Wizard of Oz, this piece of paper says, I got to brain. But beyond that, there were masters degrees, several, more than several, and a lot of graduate work. Most of that was to enhance my learning. It doesn't hurt moving up the pay scale if you're a teacher. That's how I came into be able to be a high school teacher. I had the extra credits and the extra courses. So I also had a degree in guidance and counseling and it just allowed me to run the gamut of things that I really enjoyed doing.
[00:54:13] FEMALE_1: What technology changes occurred during your working years?
[00:54:16] Joan Berman: [LAUGHTER] Everything. Last night on the television I watched Modern Marvels. It focused on the '80s and then by the '90s I was drifting off. But I was part of that. The first thing they showed was the first cell phone. Well, it was just like get smart. It was as big as this water bottle and you talked into it. The second most important thing was the Walkman, that you could actually leave your house with music and put it into this box with these giant earmuffs. What it was, was the beginning of the technology that your generation is going to improve even more. So huge changes. When I started teaching, there weren't computers. Nothing was on a computer. When I started teaching, we still could show movies where you had to thread the film through the protector and it would break and it was awful. When I started teaching, I don't know that it was simpler, but they definitely weren't a lot of the conveniences.
[00:55:37] FEMALE_1: What is the biggest difference in your primary field of employment from the time you started until now?
[00:55:44] Joan Berman: I probably shouldn't say this because I can't speak now that I'm retired. What happens in a school with a teacher? I know that I had a lot of personal freedom of how I was going to impart whatever it was. I had the standards, I knew what I had to do so it was the methodology that was probably a little different. I think the second biggest thing was the focus was not on the test. It was never on the test. It was that each individual child was to learn the subject, but it wasn't in order to test the student.
[00:56:30] FEMALE_1: How do you judge excellence in a teacher?
[00:56:36] Joan Berman: I think an excellent teacher is one who has developed a relationship with the students. That relationship doesn't mean that you'll call me Joni and I'll call you Mary Lou. That relationship says that I have such great respect for what you know and bring to this class and that in return, the student looks at me and says, boy, I have great respect what you have learned and what you can impart to me. We work on that basis. We're not at odds. I'm not your mommy or your granny. I think a good teacher recognizes that you're in a relationship with a student, and that's the way it works best, just like you are when you are living in your house with your siblings.
[00:57:26] FEMALE_1: What do you value most about being a teacher?
[00:57:30] Joan Berman: I think I value the most was that interaction I had with students. I kept me smarter than friends of mine who weren't teachers. I knew all the latest slang. I knew all those codes. I knew a lot more than people who didn't teach. I think that's probably still true of high-school teachers. They're not a wall. They hear things, they see things. I dressed a lot better than a lot of my friends. I dressed a lot younger. I don't know if that's the right answer to the question. Is that a good answer to it? I don't know.
[00:58:15] FEMALE_1: Tell me about any moves you made during your working years and retirement prior to your decision to move to your current residence?
[00:58:23] Joan Berman: Any moves I made? I lived in the same place all the years I taught and I still live there.
[00:58:29] FEMALE_1: How did you come to live there?
[00:58:33] Joan Berman: I got divorced. I needed a house. My daughter looked it up in the new Ann Arbor News. We had newspapers then. She said this looks good and I said, okay, and off we went, let me borrow some money and I've lived there ever since. That's over 40 years now.
[00:58:48] FEMALE_1: How do you feel about your current living situation?
[00:58:51] Joan Berman: Oh, I love it. I thought about that this morning as I walked around your track. Wow, what a good life that I can be out here at my age, hoofing around on a high school track and the sun is shining, and I have no responsibilities. Nothing. There's nothing I have to do.
[00:59:13] FEMALE_1: The same questions covers your retirement years to present time. How did family life change for you when you and your spouse retired and all the children left home?
[00:59:23] Joan Berman: Nothing changed. I haven't changed one [inaudible 00:59:26]. It's a gradual process. Over time to kids, my children grew up. My goal as a parent had been to raise children that would end up in a position to do what they wanted to do in life. They would be able to make the choices. I never said you have to do this and you have to go to this college or you even have to go to college. But you're going to have to get out of the nest. If you're going to have to be independent, I won't live forever. As they left, I just cooked fewer potatoes, made less crackpot. The downsizing just doesn't happen overnight. There's no big trauma, like they're gone. Know it got quieter. But children left. Husband and I parted ways. The dog died, the cat moved on. [LAUGHTER] It had all happened slowly and not once did I ever feel, oh, it's just so lonely here. For me, it was not a difficult transition, but I already had something that I was doing while I was teaching and still do and that's my athletics.
[01:00:54] FEMALE_1: What is a typical day in your life currently?
[01:00:57] Joan Berman: Oh, you'd be amazed. I'm amazed. I get up. I don't want to tell you what time I got up this morning. It was really early, but I wake up about 04:30. I used to get downstairs about 05:00. I know. [LAUGHTER] Isn't that horn? I hate to tell you, I've been that way forever. In high school, I slept a little more. But I'm just a morning person. I get up every morning, say what's happening out here? But I have to tell you, I'm probably the worst date on the planet. You better be interesting and feed me about 05:30 or 06:00 because by 08:00 I'm going to be nodding off, and I am not a napper. My day begins pretty much always the same. Tattle on downstairs. Turn on the Keurig, brush and floss, turn on the news, and wait for that time when normally I'd be leaving for Huron High School to teach a class and I look and say, [LAUGHTER] I'm still on my pajamas. There's always that moment even now. Then usually at least two, sometimes three days a week, I have a trainer and I lift weights and we're not talking baby weights. These are all geared to my sports and they're hard. They're really hard. People always think aww isn't that cute? No. It's not cute. I'm not using many machines. You'd just be shocked at what I do in a half-hour. Then I usually do my workout after that and that'll be 3-4 miles. It'll either be at Hudson Mills or it'll be at Bandemer Park across the Argo dam. Sometimes on a track in Dexter. Then I do that for three now about four, five, no, that's longer than, I've been doing it six days a week now. In the summer I have a coach and I see her twice a week and I throw. A lot of my day is training. There'll be like two a day, three a day workouts. But I can't sit anyway. It's fall, I'm raking leaves. It's winter, I'm shoveling snow. It's summer, I'm pulling weeds. I have to climb the tree to get the bird feeder, because if I don't, I can't tie up the bird feeder because the squirrels will get it. I live in a two-story house, but it's really three stories and I'm up and down. I don't know. I'm moving. I still I'm always moving. My day is just filled. If I have a downtime, my secret passion, and hopefully nobody's listening, I do jigsaw puzzles, thousand pieces. People give them to me and I buy them at the thrift stores. I read. Almost every day I read. I'd love to tell you. It was mined growing. It isn't I read Ball Dodgy and Clive Cussler and James Patterson, and stuff. I liked that. Once in a while I go to a movie. I have friends, I go out for lunch, never dinner. I'm just not good at dinner. My family comes to visit. I'm not racing anymore, but I monitor most of the races in Ann Arbor. About once a year I may just do a 5K just to walk, but I have no desire to do that. Then we do small talk about the Dustin clean and all that stuff.
[01:04:34] FEMALE_1: Did you make it out to vote yesterday?
[01:04:36] Joan Berman: Of course. Guess what time I was there? Polls open at 07:00. I was there by 7:30, but I vote down the street from my house, so I just walked down and waited in line. Again, I was very glad. What a great feeling. If you can get up in the morning when you're almost 80 years old and say, look what I can do. But yes, I make it my business to vote.
[01:05:04] FEMALE_1: When thinking about your life after retirement, what important social or historical events were taking place?
[01:05:11] Joan Berman: Since I've retired? Well, I've been retired seven years. I retired in '07 when I turned 70. Every year there's a new historical or hysterical event. It's probably not catastrophic yet, in my mind. It's not World War II. When I taught high school, I taught law and government, economics. I wrote a course called current history. All those things were always brought up and I'd always have to be careful and I'd say the war, because students didn't realize that was World War II. It could have been Vietnam, could have been Korea, could have been anywhere in Afghanistan. It just seems that the catastrophic events, sadly, we just have lots of new events all the time. With me in my high school it was polio. Now we have the scare, the Ebola scare. They're coming, don't get out of the plane. There's always a new thing. But I don't know. I think the change is probably a more technological, I'd say in the seven years since I've retired, I really have to re-learn because I do not live my life on a cell phone. I just don't even own that. I own one of those little flip things in case I have [inaudible 01:06:52] I'm out in the track, so someone will find me. But I am not socially connected to a machine. I still use the telephone or go to somebody's house. So that's probably the biggest change.
[01:07:10] FEMALE_1: When thinking back on your entire life, what important social struggle event have the greatest impact?
[01:07:20] Joan Berman: Probably my early childhood was World War II. That probably was one of the biggest impact. I think earlier, I said polio did. But I know the impact I think was not like I'm still having bad dreams. The impact was that I learned how to live with that. I learned in the proper perspective of that. I'm not easily panicked. My students like that too. I'm pretty level. My children liked it to. You spilled the milk or you drop something on the floor, oh,] well, wipe it up. I'm not a catastrophic person in the sense that everything is [NOISE] usually because a lot of my early experience has taught me that most things are going to be there and that you can fix it. One way or another, you can fix it. You can always walk out the door, but you don't have to be stuck with bad stuff. There are usually ways around it.
[01:08:31] FEMALE_1: What family heirloom or [inaudible 01:08:34] do you possess?
[01:08:40] Joan Berman: I have few. Not many. Believe it or not, you'd never know to look at me. I have family jewelry that when my mother's family came to this country, several of the great aunts worked at Tiffany's, they brought a beautiful pearls and little diamonds. It got passed down. The rule was it only got passed to the women in the family. After my grandmother died and my mother died and my aunt died, that left me and guess who's going to get it? My only daughter. I think all my son's know that. I guess that's a family heirloom. My own collection probably would be, I have a lot of artwork. I have really nice artwork. Not artwork I did, but bought that's from the southwest. It has a lot of value to it. I have a son who's an archaeologist and he pretty much knows the value, that would be something to pass on. I have books that will be part of my legacy. They can either throw them all out, but I know there'll be a lot they keep. Probably that's it. It doesn't mean that that's the stuff that all has the most meaning for me. I have a whole room full of trophies and ribbons, and I have no idea what they're going to do with that. But I'm not going to throw it out. Just for the satisfaction of not doing it. I don't think it's an heirloom. I think someone will hang onto it.
[01:10:29] FEMALE_1: Looking back over your entire life, what are you most proud of?
[01:10:34] Joan Berman: Still being here. Still being happy. Still being myself. I want to know the truth. I don't feel any different than I did when I was 17 or 25, or 35, or 55, then I'm over 75. I don't feel any different. Problem is that when I go into the store and I almost never do this, when I go to buy real close, not running close. I just can't look in the mirror. You go in that dressing room and I want to know who is that staring back at me. That is not the person that I see when I look out of my eyes at me. I still see the same silly person that I always was. I think that was the answer to that.
[01:11:25] FEMALE_1: What advice would you give to my generation?
[01:11:30] Joan Berman: Don't be so serious. It's a very short time on the planet. This is like the school teacher lecture. If you do and you look at those timelines. Everybody likes to look at the timeline and you're here and there's this little dot and that's you. Then you have to think, well, this timeline, what is it that is going to make me happy? Well, I'm not talking about material. Make me happy. You have to have some . You have to say, well, I want us some sense of who I am. I want to know who I am. I want to enjoy of who I am. When you have those, I want to, send you start putting into perspective, how am I going to get there? What will it take to get there? But you can't be embedded in the how to get there. It may not be going to Harvard and it might not be going to Washington or community college. It might not be anything that you're thinking right now that this is the what I have to do and if I don't do it my life will be just done. If I don't get that scholarship, if I don't to this people right. It isn't that way. You just have to step back and sometimes just say, oh, well, I'll just pick myself up and we'll do it again next time. But if you put it in stone and the problem as people are asking you to do that, not out of meanness. They're asking you out of love. Your counselor says, wow, you have to get to these in now and the teacher says you have to get this grade and your parents say, what you'll be about me the street corner, that's out of care and concern. But you have to face up to that and say, Well, I'm not sure where I am right now. I know what I would like to learn. I know what I don't want to do. But then I was a person who said the last thing I ever wanted to do was be a school teacher and it turned out to be the best thing I could have possibly have done. I can't imagine that I could ever sat in a desk being efficient. From 9:00-5:00, I can't imagine that I'd want to work overtime every night instead of going home and having an early dinner and running around the block. I chose but it chose me. Sometimes I think that that's what your generation needs to step back from that little box and all the people telling you how to do it, and the media telling you everything how to do it and how to think and who to vote for. Just know that you all have within you far more knowledge than you are given credit for. That's why I love teaching high school. I liked those little kids. They were fine. Second forth, it's the same way I was with high school students. But I liked high-school students because you're so smart. You just have been led to believe some students that is, that what do you know? I've been here for 70 more years than you have, I would know no you don't. That would be my advice.
[01:14:56] FEMALE_1: Is there anything you would like to add that I haven't asked you about it?
[01:15:03] Joan Berman: Go for a run with me this afternoon? [LAUGHTER] No, I don't think so.
[01:15:08] FEMALE_1: No.
[01:15:14] Joan Berman: No.
[01:15:15] FEMALE_1: Actually, I'm just going to make to worser's right now. What inspired you to start running and competing?
[01:15:23] Joan Berman: God, is such a good question. I've asked myself that and other people have too. I think probably it was the accumulation of everything in my past. I had always like to be active. I always like to be outdoors. I did not do anything athletic until I was almost 60 years old. Every day I walk, I played with the dog [LAUGHTER] I did stuff. I raise sons. I'm a terrible basketball player, but I know how to do it. I'm not good at baseball, but I know how to do it. I'm a crappy ice skater. I can do all that stuff, and I always did it, but I wasn't very good at it. But the one thing I always enjoyed was walking. I always thought, well, walking is so much fun and I think that's because I grew up in Chicago in my young years and we didn't have a car. It's war time. Everybody's cars were up on blocks. My family could have had a car because my father was overseas, and we were allowed to own a car and we got stamps, so we could have gas. But I live in the city, you know how to drive didn't work in downtown Chicago, so my mother put the car up on blocks and took those gas damps and traded them to the hamburger family for sugar and meat, so we had a lot of good cookies, stuff they didn't. Consequently, I walked. It didn't occur to my mother that you didn't walk a mile and a half to school. In the snow, in the rain, in whatever, put on boots, put on a hat [LAUGHTER]. Just didn't occur to her that you didn't walk. If you watch city people, they walk in the worst weather. They're down, here we are in New York City and here we are in downtown Detroit or downtown Chicago, and they got umbrellas and they're bundled up going like this. That was the habit. I always had that habit. But time went by and here I was and I had. I was walking for fun. One day, I had a terrible stomachache and I thought it was something I eat and it wasn't, I have Crohn's disease. [LAUGHTER] What did I know? I ended up in St. Joe's for a week. I had all the vices I ever had, I had to fly out the window, I had nothing else to do. I walk more, and I walked faster [NOISE] I walked faster that's all I did. One day somebody said, boy, look at you, you really walk fast. That's how I said, yeah, and they said you could be race walker. I didn't even know what that was. Those were the guys who walked with those just penguin look in the Olympics. I had to admit when I was young before polio, I wanted to be an Olympic runner. I dreamt it, oh my God, I would be there, there I would be, never was going to happen. But I met somebody who said you could be a race walker, and they introduced me to a coach because that's the only way you can learn that sport. Then my coach, Francisco Alanji was the Italian track coach and he taught me how to be a race walker. But more than that, he taught me how to train. I had never done anything like that. Anaerobic lactic training [LAUGHTER].I had no idea what those things were. I didn't know what pain was. This is the famous line he used to tell me when I'd be in pain, and he'd say, pain, hurts, that's a rental car. I learned things that I never knew before, and I now had the time to do it. My children were grown and gone. I was on my own, I had time to train. That's what led to race walking, and I completed 17 marathons as a race walker against runners, and I won 11 of them over runners. I have a room full of trophies. I have been lucky enough to be race walker of the year. I've been world ranked. I've been to Finland, I've been to Australia, I've been to Puerto Rico, I've been all over. Nobody really knew. I've never even I'm sure half of my friends will be shocked. They just thought, are you still speed walking? They still [LAUGHTER] ask me that, and I said no yeah yeah. Then one day I saw somebody throw and I was in Australia then. I thought I want to learn this and I did, I got a coach here. Conrad Sampson taught me how to throw the discus and the javelin. Since that time, my mind is thoroughly warped as a retired adult, but I did this even when I was teaching. You have to totally focus in, your social life has gone. The hard work is there. You have to understand what hard work it is, because you have to dedicate a lot of stuff to it, and what's the thrill? The thrill is that I have friends from all over the world. In the end, two years ago I set the American record in the discus. I have this nice piece of paper that said, ice, and I'll own that forever year. Last year she beat me. Next year we're going to go at it again. There are two tapes if you Google me in, and Channel 2 did the story, little old lady with polio makes good. I tried to say that it's very personal. I never set out to set a record. I don't set out to get the medals, it's me against me. I think it's my stubborn determination to say see polio didn't stop me, see nothing stopped me. Whatever it is, nothing stopped me from doing what I wanted to do and it takes. I never knew I had the courage to do it and I still don't. I still don't sleep the night, two nights before I get on a plane. I went to nationals last year and Winston-Salem thinking, what am I doing here? I came home and I really did well. For me to be the national champion in the weight, I threw the weight, it felt really good. I won the discus, I felt really good. It's a personal inner, like [NOISE] it's me, and I still don't believe it. That's the motivation and the side benefits are fabulous. One thing is I'm a pretty good health and even though we aren't really rewarded by the insurance companies for being in pretty good health, I can still climb that tree to put the bird feeder up. I still write eight bags of those leaves. I have a snow shovel, I don't have a plow thing. I still can go up and down, 3, 4 flights up stairs. One benefit is good health. If you're going to live long, at least I'm moving. The second benefit is I have some close friends here, but I have lots of friends that are all over the world and all over the country. I only see I'm attract mates and we all do the same thing. How are you? We never ask how are your kids? How has your arthritis [LAUGHTER]? How are your pains? Nothing. It's usually and what have you been doing and how are your time's going? It's like a whole world. For me it's like being in high school, the best part of high school. Without having to do any of the work or any homework, I get to play.
[01:23:48] FEMALE_1: What do you think would be different now if you had started competing earlier?
[01:23:54] Joan Berman: I think I probably be a bendy of a lady. I really think that. My own mother died when she was only 46 and I was 21. I didn't know how to be older than that. But I do know I have friends who are my age and I don't take any pills. That's a lie. I take a thyroid pill ever since I was 18, but that's it. There's nothing else. I don't take vitamins, I don t take supplements. I eat really well, I eat everything. I'm not as sweet eater. But I get to live life and I think that's the big goal.
[01:24:40] FEMALE_1: [inaudible 01:24:40]
[01:24:47] Joan Berman: Oh, my God, it's 6:30. It's 5:30. Did you get it all? Is it done, do you think? Did you ask enough? Did you want to ask anything?
[01:24:59] FEMALE_1: Yeah.
[01:25:00] MALE_1: [inaudible 01:25:00] . I don't have any specific question.
[01:25:05] Joan Berman: Did you want to ask anything? Who are you?
[01:25:07] Ardin: I'm Ardin. I'm filling in for Alex.
[01:25:10] FEMALE_1: I'm sorry, I didn't introduce you guys. This is Joan Berman.
[01:25:14] Joan Berman: I saw you here last time. What time is it for real?
[01:25:18] Ardin: It's 9:30.
[01:25:23] Joan Berman: Good. I've always done that. Like I said, the last person out of the house, I keep going to the Humane Society, I'm looking for a dog, but then I think, [NOISE] if you're going to live with me.
[01:25:37] FEMALE_1: You guys would have so much fun together.
[01:25:40] Joan Berman: I used to have a cat. I'm not good with cats. Well, they like me if they're the right kind of cat.
[01:25:47] FEMALE_1: Will you take your dog out for walks?
[01:25:49] Joan Berman: Yeah, but then I travel in the summer.
[01:25:53] FEMALE_1: I will watch your dog.
[01:25:54] Joan Berman: Well, all right, you'll have to find me a dog. I haven't met Mr. Right dog yet.
[01:25:59] Ardin: Once you get a shepherd, they're super high energy. They'll be able to keep up with your energy. [OVERLAPPING]
[01:26:03] Joan Berman: No, I don't want high energy, I want laid back. I want cool guy. When I get home it's done. We're done. I'll walk with you but we're done.
[01:26:12] MALE_1: Not a fluffy.
[01:26:14] FEMALE_1: [inaudible 01:26:14] big.
[01:26:14] Joan Berman: I've owned Great Danes. I had a Great Dane, oh, my God. My first real grown-up dog that I had was a shepherd collie mix. She was fantastic. Shepherd collie, but she looked like a big fox. [LAUGHTER] She was nice. She was more shepherd-like, she didn't have that long flowing hair. Then I had Otto, and he was a Great Dane. Hilarious. Great Danes are fantastic dogs. They're like a big chihuahua in a way, but they don't live very long. In eight years and they're out. That's really tough. Then we had a couple of those. Then we had Charles Brown dog known as Chuck. We never figured it out. They thought maybe part Ridgeback and part some kind of lab. But he was a blood donor dog. He was cool. He came from Kmart. Some kid giving away puppies on Christmas Eve, my husband couldn't say no. He was a blood donor dog. I would get a call in the morning, usually the night before to say we're going to do an operation on this pedigree little Fifi [LAUGHTER] and they needed a transfusion. I dropped Chuck off in the morning and no manners. Oh, my God, he would walk into the waiting room and his paws were here, and let me sniff your cat. As soon as he walked in the examining room, he was good as gold. One time some lady made a comment about mongrel dog. I don't know if you know it. What they're called now? It's Ann Arbor Animal Hospital. It's on the corner, Liberty Stadium. Anyway, they would call, and one of the doctor, she was really cool, she said that lady doesn't know what's going in her pedigree dog's veins. I would drop Chuck off on my way to Huron, and they would let him in the back door and then he would donate blood, just like people do, same thing, only they take it out of the neck. You don't lay there with your paw out. [LAUGHTER] But it's quick. They drink lots of water, unlike people. It's real quick. But you can't knock them out. You don't want to contaminate the blood. Good boy, nice dog, good job. When he's done he gets cookies and kibbles and a bath, because he always stink. Then he had the run of the place over there. One time they took him up to Lansing, because he was a universal blood donor dog, so they kept it there. When he died, that was the last dog I had. I said I can't do this again. That is way too painful. That's like a member of the family, it was [inaudible 01:29:07] . They sent pleasant flowers. But I can remember my students asking because I get student council here on [inaudible 01:29:18] 10 years. I ran the student council. We ran the blood banks. The kids would want to know, well, why does the dog have to give blood? Take biology, you can't switch. [LAUGHTER] There are different types. No, human to human. You have to have a blood donor dog, and plenty of dogs need blood. That's the way they do it.
[01:29:47] FEMALE_1: We want to tell your story as one of inspiration to others of all ages about how to live life to the fullest, how to reach beyond the perceived limits of age or gender. Some of the questions may seem familiar because we've asked me before during the first three sessions. We're asking, again, because the questions are critical to the story we want to share about you and because it will be easier for us to edit the videotape into story that will engage an audience. We have about 15 questions today. We want to begin your story by asking you to name one of the biggest accomplishments or best evidence of your willingness to avoid being defined or limited by your age.
[01:30:27] Joan Berman: I would guess that deciding to become an athlete at the age of 58 maybe [NOISE] and pursuing it to this day was the scariest, bravest, and probably most defining of I'm not just going to sit here like a vegetable. I'm going to do something different. I would say that that's probably one of the defining things of aging for me.
[01:31:02] FEMALE_1: To understand your amazing ability to rise [BACKGROUND] above and do extraordinary things, we're going to start with a few questions about your early life. Again, some of this may be a repeat of questions we asked in the fall, so thank you for your patience. Where did you grow up?
[01:31:19] Joan Berman: I had grown up in several places. Probably I'm still growing up. But I began growing up outside of Chicago and then in Chicago. Somewhere in about my, I guess it would be mid-elementary years, I moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan, and I lived there through my high school years. Then I ended up in Ann Arbor. That was probably about 1956, and I've been here since, and I'm still growing up.
[01:31:51] FEMALE_1: What is your single strongest memory of Chicago or Grand Rapids in terms of its influence on your competitive spirit?
[01:32:00] Joan Berman: I'm not always clear whether or not I have a competitive spirit. I know I have a stubborn spirit. I know that. The older I get, the more aware I am of, I've always questioned things like, I'll do that, but why? But I've never been competitive so much with other people as I am with myself. I suppose that that was probably way back in my beginnings in Chicago of daring to do things that I probably wasn't supposed to, but I just had to test myself, so I competed with me. I didn't always tell that I did it, but that's still in me.
[01:32:43] FEMALE_1: Do you want to tell her towards the memoir or are we good? Place your formative years in historical context, What was the accepted role or standard expectations about women at that time?
[01:33:04] Joan Berman: I thought about that this morning for some reason I don't know why. I think that for whatever reasons I was born into a family and into circumstances and into time placement, where I lucked out in that some of the things that other women who are in my age group, were lucked into and I was not. I think that right from the start, I was aware that there weren't too many boundaries even though I was a girl. Maybe it's because I was an only child for a long time. But I climbed trees and I ran. I also did ballet and I danced. Everything was acceptable. I remember being in trouble because usually the bowls on my dresses would get ripped because I played tag a lot. I had a lot of bloody knees because I roller-skated. I fell down a lot. But I don't remember ever feeling until probably I got into high school that perhaps my view of what I could do with my life as a woman would have some obstacles. It didn't stop me really, but gender did make a difference.
[01:34:26] FEMALE_1: Do you want water over here?
[01:34:29] Joan Berman: You might, really gravelly.
[01:34:31] FEMALE_1: No, I'm just curious.
[01:34:32] Joan Berman: No, I'm good.
[01:34:34] FEMALE_1: Your professional career was spent molding young minds as a social studies teacher. Where did2you teach?
[01:34:40] Joan Berman: [LAUGHTER] A scary thought I'd mold their mind. I started teaching elementary school. I taught second grade, I taught fourth grade, and then I was a resource teacher and then I taught at Huron High School. I can honestly say that my style and the way I spoke to students is identical. It's the same if you're in second grade or you're my grandchild. I enjoy learning from other people and particularly younger people because they know all that. I can't say that there was anything but fun in all of it. But that molding of minds, maybe that was back there. I've had so much fun, you could be like me. But I don't think I ever wanted to change people. I didn't want to change how people were. I wanted young people to enjoy and look around them and see what I enjoy.
[01:35:40] FEMALE_1: How many years did you teach?
[01:35:43] Joan Berman: About 35, 36. I was a late starter. I didn't start any of that till I was 40. Just about 40.
[01:35:55] FEMALE_1: Looking back, is there one student who stands out in your mind as someone who reminds you of yourself today?
[01:36:07] Joan Berman: That's a good question. There are probably several. There's one young woman I think, who I still hear from occasionally and I watched her march to a different drummer and I marched to a different drummer, I guess. I'd say that, yes, sometimes you'll find one person who you see a lot of yourself in sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not. But the answer is yes.
[01:36:46] FEMALE_1: As a teacher what strategies, if any, did you use to encourage your students to achieve to their highest potential?
[01:36:54] Joan Berman: Well, I think there's only one strategy. You're here. That's the job you're supposed to do. You wouldn't be here if you couldn't accomplish it. It never mattered to me, there's a bell curve. It doesn't mean you have to get the A plus plus. But you would not be sitting in front of me unless you were here for a purpose. The purpose was to learn something and it's obviously true that you're capable so let's get it on and that's the way it was. It's domineering on my part. But my strategy was we are I always laid it out right as you walk in the door. It wasn't rules. It was this is how we're going to conduct the next week, so we're living together.
[01:37:43] FEMALE_1: You've accumulated some remarkable accomplishments as a retiree. What inspired you to start competing?
[01:37:54] Joan Berman: Like I said, I'm not sure I did it to start competing. I always like to be outdoors and I've always been active, and I never did that in a competitive sense. I think we have to go back that there was another defining moment, probably changed a lot of what I did and that is that I had polio in the '50s. That definitely changed. As I said, as a girl, I grew up doing everything. When I had polio, [NOISE] it closed down some of the things I was going to do. [NOISE] Excuse me. But that desire to be outdoors and to run and to play, that's always been there. I don't think I ever dreamed I'd be competitive. I'm a lot shy than you might think. People talk to me and they say, you're so secure. Well, no everybody puts up a little whatever's. First time I ever really competed, I was terrified. The first time I ever did a marathon, I stood there and said, what am I doing here? What were you thinking? The gun goes off and there you go. It's done. The first time I ever stood in the middle of a stadium and this was out in Eugene, Oregon and I'm in pre country and I'm standing there with a javelin in my hand and there are all those people. Oh, man. Then you just have to okay. Do it. Then once you start it's a blur. It all goes and it gets to be fun. To this day, I go to tournaments or I go to track meets and I think probably those people are all good. What am I doing here? Then I realize I just liked my students. I can do this job. I may not get the A [LAUGHTER] so I may not win this, but I did it. That feeling is not competitiveness so much as my own accomplishment. It doesn't mean to say if you're on the track in front of me, I won't try and pass you. It doesn't mean to say if Madeline throws that distance that I won't try and throw farther but it's competing, but it's competing with me. I don't know if that answered it.
[01:40:29] FEMALE_1: Are there any other ways that polio has shaped who you are?
[01:40:32] Joan Berman: I think a lot. I think it has given me a different view as to when people have, I don't even use that word, so I won't even say it. I had knee replacement three-and-a-half years ago, total. Afterwards everybody said, look at you, you're taller. You're not bow legged. Oh, did you know John, you limped? No, did I? I never know. Of course, I guess I did. But that never occurred to me and on that apparently is a lot of my mother to say, well, I can't do this because. I didn't become a competitive athlete after polio because I had polio, I just didn't. But it didn't stop me. I view other people who have issues with something. I have a hang nail. I have only one leg. It's all the same to me. You'll find most humans find a way to do something. They'll do something different. I think other people don't always recognize that almost everybody I know has some little glitch. Do you know I got webbed feet? Do you know that? [LAUGHTER] Do you know that I have this? I think lots of humans get beyond. Sometimes you have to work really hard at it and sometimes you have to take the direction that you take. My desire was to be a ballerina. I was not going to be a ballerina wearing those braces. There were some things that I suppose I didn't do, but it didn't blame it on that.
[01:42:31] FEMALE_1: What is your proudest achievement and why?
[01:42:34] Joan Berman: I don't think I have a proudest. I have to say sometimes I don't know if my children would agree. I think the most fun thing I did, in retrospect now that they're all teasers themselves, is that I liked raising my kids, and I still have that thought. In some ways I felt the same way with school. I never wanted to continue it forever. But that was like a success and not a success because they all became something or rather, my success was they became what they wanted to become and they have pretty happy lives. That was, I guess the goal and that makes me feel good.
[01:43:24] FEMALE_1: Where do you find the motivation to compete? It's repetitive one.
[01:43:31] Joan Berman: I think probably my motivation, I trained like a house on fire. I train. I think people are always surprised. They say, what do you do when you're retired? Well, I have a very rigorous training schedule and my summer season is starting and I'm getting more muscular and stronger. I get up every morning like any other person who is almost 80 by saying, Oh my God, does this hurt? Where is the coffee? Then pretty soon after that cup of coffee in an Advil, feel better. Then the motivation is, it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood. I'm back, I'm on the right side of this side. Now, what do I want to do? If you do any sport, if you do any musical adventure, if you're an artist, if you really are a dedicated physicist, whatever it is, there's something if you have a passion for it that keeps you getting up and doing the thing even when you are in a lot of pain, when you're really tired, when you can find a million reasons not to go to practice. There's something that must be rewarding to me and that reward probably is at the end of the day, I did it. Now, I deserve my snack or whatever it is I want to reward myself with. It's not for everybody, but it's for me.
[01:44:52] FEMALE_1: What is your fondest memory of competing?
[01:44:56] Joan Berman: I had never really been out of the country and I went to US Track and Field World's called, I don't know what it's called, but it's masters. I always have to tell people it's not old people. Masters track and field are people 30 and up. I have two things that were just real big. The first time out of the country, I went to Gateshead, England. It was awesome. I had never seen other people who felt like I did, who were as old as I was, and I was probably 58, 59. I was terrified. That was the first time like why am I here? These are real people. But it was awesome. It was awesome because after 10k, this very fast woman from France came up to me and said, you're the blonde. Our coach said to watch out from from America. I had never visualized myself as that person. That was a big one. I think the second one was just this last summer and I went to nationals. Nationals were in Winston-Salem and I'm warming up and I'm a thrower. So I go on the track just to get warm and get loose and it's nice and I have friends and I'm there and I'm looking over and there is Jackie join or Kirsty standing there warming up. I thought, wow. Everybody asks, what did you speak to her? Oh heavens, no. Hi there. No, I just was an odd name that I had seen forever and on television. She's not a spring chicken. But again, that was pretty amazing to me. Again, it's not competitive that drove me there. That was way over the top private secret, what an inner smug thought I had. Look what I just did. Those are probably two of the most memorable.
[01:47:13] FEMALE_1: What words of wisdom do you have that could help others become motivated to reach for the stars either in sports or their professions or even school?
[01:47:24] Joan Berman: I don't know, I hate old people who make pronouncements. Well, I think there was a level that I've always felt this way. I don't think anybody's life as a picnic ever. I don't think it can be that way. I think though, that probably the words of wisdom is that you're really not on this planet for very long in the scheme of time, if you look at that time, [LAUGHTER] if you know it's gone. Then somewhere you have to decide how do I want to live while I'm here? There's some things you're never going to be able to control. On the other hand, there are some things you are and so even in the worst, darkest day, you can look out a window and say, look, there's a deer, or look. I think just taking things and accepting them for what they are. Don't be mad, don't be cranky and stay away from negative people. That's their issue and not yours. I can't say, Oh, you should just go and follow your dream. That's easier said than done. Well, I got these other people, I raised tons of kids. Least it seemed like tons and tons I had several husbands. I had a busy life. I couldn't always just say, well, I think I'll go and commune. You can't do that. But you can certainly appreciate those things that are really fine. Just stay away from the people who would prefer that you weren't just very happy.
[01:49:10] FEMALE_1: What are you most thankful for?
[01:49:12] Joan Berman: Still being here. Absolutely still being here. I think that's the most happy thing. Still being here and still being in reasonably and I mean really high reasonably good health. I'm still upright, I'm still competing. I'm amazed. My mother was very young and I was very young when she died and I was young when she died. I never dreamed. I have no idea how to be this age. No idea whatsoever. I'm going to be, I guess the oldest surviving female [LAUGHTER] in my family. So I have no compass. Sometimes I'm still and I've been told that, you still act like a kid sometimes. That's all I know. If things stop at a certain point, that's what I know. Being kind, I try and do that. Being thoughtful, I try and do that. Being totally self-centered, sometimes I certainly try and do them. But I'm just thankful that I'm sitting here doing this.
[01:50:22] FEMALE_1: Who was your greatest influence throughout your life?
[01:50:28] Joan Berman: Shoot. If I got complicated, I don't want all that I would say anybody. I think a lot of parts of my mother were very influential, good and bad. Sometimes people can be an influence on you who are not happy, who are not feeling fulfilled. Because you say, I don't want to be like that. I don't want to miss the boat. Don't think I want to try that. Then sometimes there are people who seem to be moving right along and you think, well, I'm going to do that. I have to say probably those are early years and studies show some of those early people in your childhood have tremendous influence is forever. But it's not to say that right along the way, including maybe this afternoon or tomorrow morning, I'll run into somebody and they will have a huge difference on how I perceive something or how I think about something. I certainly can't say that some of the teachers that I had didn't have a big impact. Some really cranky wants too. My English teacher was really cranky, but I still remember her name. [LAUGHTER] When I answer questions on jeopardy to myself, I knew that Ms. Phenol is still watching me. There are influences. That's a hard one, but probably my mother was first and foremost and then long the way, students, all sorts of people.
[01:52:08] FEMALE_1: Are there any details that we left out that you want to discuss?
[01:52:12] Joan Berman: I have probably discussed more with you guys, which implies my trust of you than I've ever spilled the beans to anybody. I'm sure that some people, if they ever watch this, will be surprised and other people say, well, that's my mom. Yeah, that's probably. [LAUGHTER]

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2022

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Legacies Project