Legacies Project Oral History: Joetta Mial

Mon, 08/29/2022 - 12:00pm

When: 2022

Transcript

[00:00:08] INTERVIEWER: Would you please state and spell your name for records?
[00:00:13] Joetta Mial: My name is Joetta Mial and that's J O E T T A M I A L.
[00:00:20] INTERVIEWER: Your birth date including the year?
[00:00:22] Joetta Mial: 5/5/31, I'm 83.
[00:00:26] INTERVIEWER: How would you describe your ethnic background?
[00:00:30] Joetta Mial: I'm African American.
[00:00:32] INTERVIEWER: What is your religious affiliation if any?
[00:00:35] Joetta Mial: I'm protestant and I attend Bethel African American. African Methodist Episcopal Church.
[00:00:49] INTERVIEWER: What is the highest level of formal education you completed?
[00:00:53] Joetta Mial: I have a PhD in education.
[00:00:55] INTERVIEWER: Did you attend additional schooling or formal grad training past that?
[00:01:03] Joetta Mial: Workshops like but not any other degrees.
[00:01:10] INTERVIEWER: That's a big one [LAUGHTER]
[00:01:12] Joetta Mial: Yes. [LAUGHTER]
[00:01:14] INTERVIEWER: Are you married?
[00:01:16] Joetta Mial: I'm a widow. I was married 50 years before my husband passed 13 years ago.
[00:01:25] INTERVIEWER: How many children do you have if any?
[00:01:27] Joetta Mial: I have three grown sons.
[00:01:30] INTERVIEWER: Do you have any siblings?
[00:01:32] Joetta Mial: Yes, one sister.
[00:01:35] INTERVIEWER: What would you consider your primary occupation to have been during the course of your life?
[00:01:41] Joetta Mial: It's education [BACKGROUND]. Even before I started my formal education, I've always, I think even though it wasn't express, I wanted to help others learn.
[00:02:06] INTERVIEWER: At what age did you retire?
[00:02:09] Joetta Mial: Sixty three.
[00:02:14] INTERVIEWER: The next part of the interview is going to be about family history. Anything you can recall with any history of migration and a lot of traditions. Do you know any stories about any traditional naming things in your family names?
[00:02:40] Joetta Mial: My family name?
[00:02:41] INTERVIEWER: Like the last name, is there something [OVERLAPPING] special about it [LAUGHTER] that I you know of?
[00:02:48] Joetta Mial: Not so much that I know. I know that my father was from Mississippi and my mother was from West Virginia. It's a story about my father coming North. He and my my grandmother, his mother, lived in the South where there was still a lot of segregation and discrimination against blacks. My father was a big guy and one of the reasons my grandmother came North was because my father, she didn't want him to get into trouble. He was a revolutionary, maybe you might say, but certainly had his own mind and did not like the situation that was there. They came to Chicago and eventually came to Jackson and that's where I was born. My parents were married very early. My dad was about 21 and my mom was about 17 or 18.
[00:04:05] INTERVIEWER: That's cool. Do you know anything about your ancestors migrating to the United States like the first-generation that would have come?
[00:04:17] Joetta Mial: We haven't done that. I hoped that we do that from I have one son that's really interested in that. No, I don't know a lot about it.
[00:04:32] INTERVIEWER: Okay. What stories have come down about parents or grandparents maybe from their time in Mississippi or from the Chicago. Do you know anything about events around that?
[00:04:51] Joetta Mial: No except that life was very hard in Mississippi. I think my mom had a much easier time in West Virginia, but she was very young and, getting married at 17 or 18. There wasn't a lot of time for her to get a lot of history about what was happening there. In my own growing up, Jackson was a segregated place [NOISE] but we lived in what I would call a lower middle-class area where it was very integrated group and everybody seemed to get along. The schools were integrated and I can remember walking to my elementary school, to my middle school at that time they call it intermediate and I went to West intermediate and the high-school, I went to Jackson High School. [NOISE] There was not a lot of what we would call racial among the people living in the neighborhood. We didn't experience that now. My parents experienced it in terms of working. They both ended up later in life working in factories and that was during a time when women also got a chance to work and so we were able to move to an area that was mainly white. It was wall of white. The upper part of the street and because they were making more money, we were able to have a really good, my childhood was was good.
[00:07:12] INTERVIEWER: That's good.
[00:07:14] Joetta Mial: My grandmother on my father's side lived with us. I thought it was funny that she went with them on there. They ran off and got married and my grandmother was with them [LAUGHTER].
[00:07:32] INTERVIEWER: That is a little silly.
[00:07:36] INTERVIEWER: It wasn't an arranged marriage?
[00:07:38] Joetta Mial: No, and I've forgotten how they really met. But my father was about four years older than my mom. They were married 63 years when my mom passed.
[00:07:56] INTERVIEWER: That's a very long time.
[00:08:00] Joetta Mial: Yeah, very long time.
[00:08:02] INTERVIEWER: It's so cool. When you grew up, what were your strongest memories of bad neighborhood? Maybe school too, but just the atmosphere and maybe your neighbors. Do you remember any of that?
[00:08:20] Joetta Mial: I guess some of it. The neighborhood was, like I said, integrated. My sister and I had friends, both Black and White and whatever other ethnic group there was. We used to play together. We went to school together. I can remember at that point, we had a lot of relatives that live there in the city and we would gather on weekends. There were a lot of porches in those days. The adults would be on the porches and the kids would be playing. I can remember playing hide and seek, and that time the neighborhoods and everything was so safe that you didn't think about we'd be in a dark playing hide and seek. We would get together for dinners and particularly holidays, were a really big thing and relatives coming and my mom was a super cook. She was really good.
[00:09:43] INTERVIEWER: Was Thanksgiving a big one? [OVERLAPPING]
[00:09:44] Joetta Mial: A big one. Thanksgiving and Christmas.
[00:09:47] INTERVIEWER: That makes sense.
[00:09:49] Joetta Mial: We had a great time.
[00:09:54] INTERVIEWER: You said most of your family lives near you.
[00:09:57] Joetta Mial: At the time.
[00:09:57] INTERVIEWER: Did anyone have to travel to come for holidays or anything?
[00:10:04] Joetta Mial: Traveling, yes. We had relatives in Annapolis. My dad had some from Mississippi. My mom's father lived there in Jackson until he died, and we had lots of friends, but I can remember traveling. I never went to Mississippi while my father was living, but we did go south. We had relatives in Kentucky also and my sister and I would spend a couple of weeks down there in the summer and we always felt as teenagers, so free. Probably did some things that we wouldn't do when you're at home and [LAUGHTER] have fun. But at that time you couldn't stop at gas stations and it was so segregated. You packed a lot of food in the car, so you wouldn't have to stop at restaurants and they did stop at a gas station. But it was quite dangerous in terms of Black families traveling down there.
[00:11:24] INTERVIEWER: Did you find, as you were growing up, that you learned more about racial tensions? Obviously, you wouldn't become more aware of it, but do you think it was getting worse, getting better? Did you note any of this?
[00:11:38] Joetta Mial: As I got older?
[00:11:39] INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Did it affect you more?
[00:11:45] Joetta Mial: Yes, in terms of learning more about what was happening. Yes, I did. When you're younger and depending on where you are and what behavior people around you are doing. But my sister and I were oblivious to it when we were really young. But as we got to be teenagers and older, then yes, there was more awareness and studying about how things were.
[00:12:32] INTERVIEWER: That make sense. What was your house like? Do you remember anything about it?
[00:12:41] Joetta Mial: I can remember a little bit about the three main houses. The first one, I was very young, we lived on the north side of town and Jackson. I was quite young then and we actually had one of my uncles was rooming there at the house. I don't remember too much about them. We did not have a lot of money then. I would say we were poor, but my sister and I didn't realize that because we seemed to have everything that we need and were satisfied with what we had. Then I can remember moving, gosh, I can't remember the street, but it was clear across town. I can remember a stove and how the house went straight through. But there were a lot of kids in the neighborhood. That was a fun place. Then as we got older, we moved to this really nice house on Milwaukee, and it had a fireplace and a basement, and my folks had the basement renovated so that it was really nice. It was seen as we had lots of friends and we had lot of kids over and company. There was a very nice house and I lived in that until I left home. I really remember that we had cherry trees in the back and my mom and dad had a small garden. It was really nice. We integrated that particular part of the neighborhood and now it is totally all Black and has been for quite some time.
[00:14:55] INTERVIEWER: What was your room like? Do you remember that in that house?
[00:14:58] Joetta Mial: My sister and I, we had a room together. I didn't have a room separately. Let me see. I can remember, it was either teddy bears or some doll that we collected, and my grandmother sowed a lot. She even made some of our clothes. To this day I can remember a dress that she made my sister and I just alike that was red and had candy stripes down it with a white of what we would call a sash that draped over the shoulder. Why I remember that? I have no idea. But she sowed and made a lot of things for us, made quilts and things like that.
[00:15:58] INTERVIEWER: Well, that's funny. Was English the main language that was spoken in your house? You said here your parents worked in a factory at that one point. Was that what they did for most of their life? Do you know what work they did?
[00:16:21] Joetta Mial: Earlier in my father had had a number of jobs. I can remember a picture that I have where he was working in Walgreens as a stock person or something. They both retired and they worked in separate factories. My mother worked at Kelsey Hayes and my dad worked at, I think it was called Frost Gear in the factories. But economically, it was very helpful for us for them to be working like that.
[00:17:07] INTERVIEWER: That make sense. What is your earliest memory when you were a child? Can be anything.
[00:17:16] Joetta Mial: Oh, gosh. Let me see.
[00:17:26] Joetta Mial: I think my earliest memory was on the house on the North side of town. I remember my sister and I going into my uncle's bedroom and meddling with things. I was very young then. I think that's my earliest memory because my memory now is not what it used to be. [LAUGHTER]
[00:18:08] INTERVIEWER: What do you mean mentally when saying it's just messing around with things is it true?
[00:18:10] Joetta Mial: Poking around, I don't know what we were looking for. But we should not have been in there. [LAUGHTER] Later we were disciplined for doing that.
[00:18:27] INTERVIEWER: Everything's curious when you're little. [LAUGHTER] Do you remember what a typical day was like? Preschool years 4,5,6 years old, what things went on at home, preschool, or anything?
[00:18:47] Joetta Mial: I don't remember preschool. I can remember going to McCullough Elementary School. I don't remember things about my teachers. I did not have a black teacher until I was in college. I remember that. But I can remember recess for some reason and I can remember studying about some parts of history, but I don't remember a lot. I can remember the playground and what it looked like. Folks thought I was precocious. I was "a good little girl", did what people asked me to do. Just dull. [LAUGHTER]
[00:20:07] INTERVIEWER: Staying out of trouble? [LAUGHTER] What things did you do for fun? You mentioned the playground, but were there any special toys you remember that you liked, or dolls, or teddy bears, or anything?
[00:20:24] Joetta Mial: I remember dolls, and I remember us finally getting a black doll. I can remember a conversation a little bit about it but not all. My sister and I we loved music and I had tap dance lessons, singing lessons, music lessons. Then when I got to be a teenager, both my sister and I, she's a couple of years younger than I we dropped it all and I am sorry to this day that I did that. But I can remember a woman we used to have talent shows and I can remember some of them and I used to sing. My sister and I laugh about it now. But that was a big thing. I can also remember going to the playground when we moved down the walkie, there was a playground further down where boys and girls, we played baseball. That was a big deal to go down there and play. There was also a little cafe that my sister and I weren't allowed at first to go there and sit but eventually, we got to go. It was a hangout for teenagers and later in the evening for adults too. It was right across the street from the playground.
[00:22:30] INTERVIEWER: That sounds fun. Seeing much that holidays are a big thing. Were there other special traditional events that your family celebrated besides maybe Christmas or Easter or thanksgiving?
[00:22:47] Joetta Mial: Easter was a big thing. The church for us was a big thing. We actually used to have dances in our church.
[00:22:59] INTERVIEWER: Ballroom dances or just like [OVERLAPPING].
[00:23:00] Joetta Mial: No just dances for teenagers, like the neutral zone now at place we had in our church and that was so long ago, so we were way ahead of ourselves in terms of that. But church was a big deal for us in terms of the number of activities that young people had so that we were, really.
[00:23:30] INTERVIEWER: Was it the same church that you attend now?
[00:23:34] Joetta Mial: Yes. Which is the African Methodist Episcopal Church. Yes. That one was named Community AME. We shorten it to AME and it belonged to Bethel AME and before that, when I first got married, I lived in Ypsilanti that was Brown Chapel. I've stayed at the same denomination all these years.
[00:24:02] INTERVIEWER: It's so cool. This is about your youth and childhood overall. Besides just preschool what about elementary school?
[00:24:19] Joetta Mial: I don't remember much about preschool at all but elementary school, I can remember loving to read. My grandmother used to read to us a lot. I can remember reading, I can remember recess, I can remember having friends and us really getting along. I don't remember the teachers. I remember some of the teachers in high school, but I don't remember much about elementary school. I just remember that we walked to school and it wasn't a big deal, and I'm trying to think, did we come home for lunch or did we have lunch?
[00:25:25] INTERVIEWER: Is it a long walk to school?
[00:25:27] Joetta Mial: No, not for the elementary school. Now that I think about it, walking to the high school would seem like quite a waste, but we walked there too. We were not bust, we walked to school.
[00:25:42] INTERVIEWER: Where a bus is available or not really?
[00:25:45] Joetta Mial: I don't remember.
[00:25:48] INTERVIEWER: You said you loved reading. Did that continue through high school?
[00:25:52] Joetta Mial: Yes.
[00:25:54] INTERVIEWER: Was that another thing that spurred you towards education then for college?
[00:26:01] Joetta Mial: My college career and I don't know if you want to talk about that right now, but I graduated from high school in January and I don't know why I took so many credits or something so that it came out in January. Then I worked and then I went to clear college for a year and took what was the secretarial business course like. Then I actually did not get back to college until I was married and my youngest child was in kindergarten. Then I just went on till I finished my PhD while working.
[00:27:02] INTERVIEWER: Was the work you did before you went to theory, was that the secretarial work? Did you play any sports or anything in high school?
[00:27:14] Joetta Mial: No. I probably would have been good on a track team but there weren't women's sports like there are today. No, I just was there but I liked sports and went to the football games and things like that.
[00:27:43] INTERVIEWER: Were there music classes at school for your singing or anything?
[00:27:49] Joetta Mial: Yes. Well, I was in a choir for a while. But I remember joining the library club and really liking that.
[00:28:02] INTERVIEWER: That would make sense with your love of reading. [LAUGHTER] What about your overall school experience probably in high school, what do you think is most different with high schools today versus when you were in high school?
[00:28:20] Joetta Mial: Oh my goodness. [LAUGHTER] Everything is so different. The offerings that students have now, we had a very traditional offering.
[00:28:49] Joetta Mial: There were some other electives, like the library and the school newspaper. I can remember the principal's name was Mr. Haldeman. He was a little short guy, but everybody seemed to like him, but they also respected him in terms of the way, I don't remember a lot of trouble in high school in terms of discipline and stuff like that. I do remember liking to go to the football games and track meets. There were some of my neighbors who were really good in football. But I can remember we had a lot of separate stuff like, there was a club called Girl Reserves. The group that I belonged to was all black. It was for the fellow sweetly at the Y. I'm trying to think about how things were separate. We used to go roller skating and black folks had a certain night they could go but they couldn't go the other nights. I remember we really liked that, going roller skating every so often to this roller skating. There's just a lot more to do, a lot more to offer. As an educator, things have changed drastically since I was a principal. From back then, it was very traditional. Things seemed to work. I don't know about the demographics and stats on how many kids graduated, how many black kids actually graduated and found jobs and stuff? I would have to do some research on that. But there are a lot more African-Americans going to college and stuff like that than back in my day.
[00:32:14] INTERVIEWER: What about the culture? I mean, obviously with the racial tension and segregation and stuff, that's a huge part of it. But do you remember what kind of music you used to listen to? What genre or what kind of dancing, what kind of clothes or hairstyle? [LAUGHTER] or anything?
[00:32:41] Joetta Mial: I think I've enjoyed all kinds of music. But my sister and I really liked whatever was popular for the young people. I can't even think of songs or think back there, but we always enjoyed music. There was some classical music that we like, but it was mainly the popular music. My mother played the piano and church music and she played for the church for awhile. My sister and I were in choirs at the church and so we liked the church music. It was just a cross section of music. But we liked whatever the young people were liking in that day, probably the most.
[00:33:52] INTERVIEWER: Is that true for the hair and the clothes and [OVERLAPPING] too?
[00:33:59] Joetta Mial: We tried to be in style. [LAUGHTER] I think we probably had these big bouffant.
[00:34:10] INTERVIEWER: Do you want to tell me about the baseball and stuff?
[00:34:15] Joetta Mial: I want to tell you about something that was very special with my dad. As I told you before, I only have one sister so he had two girls and no boys, but he loved sports and women were into sports at that time but we used to go, travel all over to baseball games and not only the Detroit Tigers, but at that time they had what they called the Negro Leagues. And we would go to Cincinnati, Cleveland, Chicago, and they also appeared in Detroit. It was just really fun. We didn't really know the significance at that time when we were there but one of the really famous pictures were Satchel Paige and we got to see him more than once and that was just really fun and different for my dad to be dragging these two girls around to these baseball games. Also my mom made the best brownies I think ever, and she would give them away. She would give them to people who went off to college, she took them to prisoners, to the neighbors. After she passed, my husband and I tried to duplicate it. We couldn't. But one day we hope to do that and become rich and famous and it'll be, I don't know, Mial's cookies or something like that. Mial's brownies.
[00:35:44] INTERVIEWER: That sounds great. We started a little bit into adulthood and your family life at our last interview, but we just briefly touched on it, so I'm just going to start over and make sure we get all of it and that we don't miss anything. This next set of questions covers a relatively long period of your life from the time you completed your education, entered the labor force or started a family until all of your children left home and you and/or your spouse retired from work. We're possibly talking about a stretch of time spanning as much as four decades.
[00:36:15] Joetta Mial: Oh my.
[00:36:15] INTERVIEWER: [LAUGHTER] Possibly. [LAUGHTER] So
[00:36:21] INTERVIEWER: After you finished high-school, you said that you did some work before you entered college, a secretarial work?
[00:36:29] Joetta Mial: Right. Because I graduated from Jackson High School and I graduated in January. Because I had taken more credits, I'm not quite sure why. I didn't work as secretary right away, I worked as an elevator operator. My parents were a little upset with me because I didn't go to school right away. I went to Jackson Junior College and worked as an elevator operator. Then in the fall, ended up going to Cleary Business College at time, which is now Cleary University in Ypsilanti. It was in Ypsilanti. That was a year-course. Then I worked several after graduation from that. It was a girlfriend of mine from Jackson. We moved to the Ypsilanti and stayed in a home, a couple that took in college Students. It was an interesting experience. At the time, I didn't have the desire to go to a four-year university. I somehow thought it was going to be glamorous to be a secretary. I had several jobs as a secretary. Institute of fisheries up on campus. I remember I could not get hired, it was now at the university, it used to be Pfizer and then it was Warner-Lambert at the time it was Parke-Davis, couldn't get there. They weren't hiring Black secretaries then, but I found some other jobs. Then I met my husband. He was going to Eastern and I met him when I was going to Cleary. I worked a year and then we got married. He was a football star, actually, from Eastern. He got the title of little Mr. America for that. Eastern's team was not very good, but he was very good.
[00:39:31] INTERVIEWER: How did the two of you meet?
[00:39:34] Joetta Mial: Well, my girlfriend and I went up on Eastern campus just to look around while we were at Cleary, and there was a young man that was a friend of my family's that I had his name that I was looking for. When we found him, my husband was there talking there with him. I don't say we clicked, but we got to know each other and started dating. I was young when I got married. That's how we met.
[00:40:19] INTERVIEWER: Did you stay around that area, around your adulthood or did you move out of it once you had?
[00:40:29] Joetta Mial: We stayed in Ypsilanti a year and then we moved to Ann Arbor because my husband was in grad school. I remember telling you that he graduated one day and we got married the next day. Anyway, he was in grad school at University of Michigan. We stayed at what it was then University of Terrace. Those are all torn down now and they're near the Mott Children's Hospital used to be. Those apartments used to be in that area. There were a lot of grad students' families that stayed in these apartments. He was in school and I started having children right away.
[00:41:27] INTERVIEWER: Very quickly. [LAUGHTER] You dated for a year. What was that like? Did you see him a lot you both in at different schools?
[00:41:42] Joetta Mial: He was also working and putting himself through school, so he was working and going to school. He was hired, [LAUGHTER] but we did okay. There were a lot of young families at Terrace Apartments and we had a good time while we were there. We eventually joined the church there, but there wasn't a lot of at that time what they call town and gown, but we've managed to get to know the people in town eventually.
[00:42:33] INTERVIEWER: What was the engagement like? How did he propose?
[00:42:37] Joetta Mial: [LAUGHTER] I was working in Lansing at that time when he proposed, and he had this ring which I still have. I still have my engagement ring and wedding ring. I don't know exactly how he did it, but he also ended up asking my father for my hand. That was the old-fashioned days. We had a really big wedding at the church. I told you that I stayed in the same church, the African Episcopal Church. We got married at the community AME Church there. Some of my friends from high-school that I had met were in the wedding and my sister and my husband's one of his low nieces. [inaudible 00:43:47] the other girl. I have some pictures of that too. It was what I would consider top, but I was young then and had lots of energy. Eventually, I went back to school. I started taking correspondence course from University of Michigan. As my kids got older, when my youngest son went to kindergarten, I started almost the full load. I would not advise this, but at that time had work and my husband was very supportive. In fact, as I kept going to school and eventually got a teaching job at Pioneer High School, that was my first teaching job. He had started work on his doctorate. Then by the time I got my masters and started working on my doctorate, he said, one of us in the family is enough, so I kept working on mine. As I was continually working, I did not stop. There was one time I got a sabbatical leave when I was an assistant principal at Herron High School. That was when the school system had money. The study that I was doing, I was looking at the achievement of Black high-school students versus other students. It was a tenure study of the high-schools. Were the two comprehensive high-schools here on the pioneer at that time and to look at data. I was really interested in what I was doing and that's probably why I labored on it and working on his dissertation. I did get a sabbatical leave to work on it at one time, but that was the sabbatical leave. I was actually gathering data from the community. Institute of social research helped my friend and I, Latisha Bird who was a counselor, she got a sabbatical also. The social research help us divide a questionnaire where we questioned the parents in the area about where their students were and how they did in school and those kinds of things. That was just so exciting to me because I knew so many people in the community anyway, we want to know what was it that made these kids successful or not successful? Anyway, that's a whole another story. My dissertation.
[00:47:14] INTERVIEWER: You're telling us passion you have to have passion for whatever you're doing. Sounds like you had a lot of passion.
[00:47:20] Joetta Mial: I did.
[00:47:22] INTERVIEWER: Wonderful. When your children were young and living with you before they went off to college or whatever, what was life like with the family, when they were growing up?
[00:47:37] Joetta Mial: It was real busy. [LAUGHTER] Lots of things going on. I had the two older sons and then there was five and six years between my youngest son and we were very involved parents in the schools. My older sons were involved when there were disturbances in the high schools. Some people call them riots. There were two distinct times. That is also part of my dissertation about the district and how it treated us the African American students versus other students. You were just always doing something. It was just constant. My husband was a civil rights activists. It was a hectic but rewarding life, meaningful, I should say. Because at that time, the lines were clear about. That spot in the high schools, that's when the black student unions developed because of a need to help. It was, I guess I don't want to use the word exciting, but it was a very meaningful time and everyone was into what they were doing. Now it's muddier. There's been a lot of progress and there's still a lot to do. But that time was very meaningful and a lot of hard work. There were parents involved. I can remember us protesting in front of the school's administration building. I can remember at one time when I was teaching that the kids came out of their hallways and the police were there. We were supposed to keep our kids in the room and not let them out. But I could see down on the lawn what was happening. That was very disturbing to me. We had meetings at the Board of Education where students got up and, this was black and white students, articulated really well what was happening to them and that's when the black demands came out. They wanted African history involved. They wanted more African-American teachers because there were hardly any. My husband was the first full-time elementary school teacher in the district. I think there was a woman who was a part-time art teacher at the time. Now that I think of it, when my husband passed, we were four months short of being married 50 years. I don't know where the time went because we were always doing something, it was interesting times.
[00:52:20] INTERVIEWER: After you graduated, obviously you were involved in administration in a lot of different ways. What were the most prominent, I guess I would say parts of your working years, what were the most jobs that stick out to you that you would say probably you had the longest or was the most meaningful?
[00:52:49] Joetta Mial: Let's see. I started out as I taught journalism, English, and speech at Pioneer for three years before I was transferred to here, promoted as one of the assistant personnels. I stayed there for 12 years as an assistant before I became the principal at Chevron. At each section there were just very meaningful. As a teacher, I loved working with students and getting a-ha moments when they would get something. I taught media courses. I always tried to, they weren't calling it critical thinking then but I always wanted students to analyze the media to get the meaning from there. So that was fun in trying to get them to do that. I worked sometimes with kids who were working in the television studio and it was nothing like you-all have equipment and stuff like you got now. But it was fun working with them sometime. Then when I was transferred to Huron, and so I became a dyed-in-the-wool river rat. Those were times when the kids were protesting. Because there was inequity. It was right in the middle. Because of knowing the students, you could do a lot of things and be able to convince them of different, what to do and what not to do. But those were some very troubled times and difficult times. But out of it came some good stuff. I was talking with someone the other day, but can you imagine we used to have smoking lounges where students were allowed to smoke in the building. Because at that time the consensus was that we'd rather have them inside smoking. As an assistant principal, I had to help supervise it, so I come home with smoke in my hair, clothing. It was a lot of change going on and adapting to change. There was just so many memorable moments as a high school principal as I move. I wasn't as close to students when I became the principal because I'm not quite sure how the system is working now, but we had assistance for class principals and you had a class and you followed it through. I was really close to my classes. In fact, a couple of the classes always invite me back to their reunions. That's always a lot of fun and some of them look older than me. [LAUGHTER] But one of the most meaningful thing that happened is that we formed a group called Us Understanding and Sharing Diversity. This was back in the '70s. A teacher in the classroom used the 'n' word to try to discipline a group of African-American boys.
[00:57:17] Joetta Mial: It was a devastating time. I mean we had to really work through that. There were parent protests, there were student protests. There was Board of Education. I was principal then. The teacher had to be disciplined. He was not fired. He had to go through some training. Out of that, developed this as program. It had a parent group, a student group, a faculty group. At the time before this incident happen. We had planned form consultant to come and to give the faculty some in-service on multicultural training. This happened, and so I called the consultant. A one-shot deal of multicultural training was not going to do it. This consultant came in and with the people, with the staff and group of students, we formed all these different groups and it was one of the most exciting things that I have ever been to and working with students. That's what I always like working with students because I feel you still have some impact on them in terms of shaping who they become. We form these groups and the parents because there was so much going on in the school. We used to meet at 6:00 in the morning. The parents, at first we were meeting every two weeks trying to, the consultant did assessment of the school of how people felt about each other. At that time, Huron was the most diverse school in the district. The Asian population was the fastest-growing group. Anyway, we formed the student groups they were trained to work with their peers. Now we have all facets like that in the schools now. But they used to have four and five-hour sessions after they were trained. They were at least two teachers supervisors, and faculty were invited to come in. What they could talk, it was the students and the supervisors. They worked through the problems with their students every so often. The University of Michigan helped us try to gather some data on how this was all impacting to students. A friend of mine. I don't know whether you've heard of Kenneth Fisher, who was the head of the University Musical Society. Well, his son was in one of the groups, the S-groups, where they trained, worked with their student peers. He tells his story all the time when I'm around, I think it was spring break. He and some friends went to Chicago. Some of their friends used some derogatory language. What they did was have a little session there to enlighten just their friends. I used to get notes and stuff from students about when they went off to college they form groups. Sometimes they are called the Mosaic and stuff like that. That was rewarding. There's just so many. I traveled with the Acapella group to Vienna Austria and that was so wonderful. My husband was able to go with me. We just had it all. It was just so wonderful the kids were so good. They just sang so beautifully, we sang in church, we sang in auditoriums, we sang in mall and this was during thanksgiving because we didn't have to miss a whole lot of school to go there. We form different groups. We already had the Black Student Union, we had what we call Apex, which was Asian Pacific, we had the different groups too. There was an Arab group and the kids just really tried to work things out. That doesn't mean it was very difficult to do. Some of the staff complain they wanted to know what those students are doing out there all that time and they didn't want their names to be used and there was confidentiality, you couldn't go out and talk about it and stayed among that group. But they were very effective. Very attractive. [BACKGROUND]
[01:03:44] INTERVIEWER: Wow, that was just a lot to take in. I'm really interested in what the protests look like you said, sometimes it was the student body, and then sometimes the parents. How did the protesting and the speaking out, How did it look?
[01:04:03] Joetta Mial: During which time?
[01:04:04] INTERVIEWER: Well, like you said, the incident one with that teacher, how is the protesting around back was it vocal was it on fliers? What did it look like?
[01:04:19] Joetta Mial: Now, see the kids didn't protest that way. First, the word had to get out and it got out [LAUGHTER] to the entire student body. There were letters home to parents and because I had this consultant coming in, he was very helpful in helping us organize around something that was very devastating and to come out with something that was very productive and helpful to us. There was a healing process, that we had to go through and it took a lot of work. Now, all the students, as in anything, weren't totally tuned in. Some kids were totally oblivious to what was going on. But we used to have what we call as assemblies. We had a slight a carnival day where we did a lot of positive things. The parents were just really helpful. They eventually at one point wanted to, have one group as parents and not have the PTS. But we end up having the as parents work with the PTSO and that was a good thing. I don't know whether you remember the Rodney King incident. I'm getting mixed up in terms of the years. But when that happened, instead of kids just wantonly protected. We had a student-faculty-led protest and kids walked around the school with signs and things and tried to do some things rather than just, I don't like the word variety disturbing anything. We had a very peaceful effective march around the school when that happened because these kids had had that 'they'd had training and so they knew.
[01:07:19] INTERVIEWER: That was a lot of beautiful information. Unfortunately, I have to get back to some rather mundane capex. During your adult life, during the working years as we knew the principle.
[01:07:40] INTERVIEWER: What was a typical day like? At work or at home on the weekend, what was it like?
[01:07:46] Joetta Mial: It's a blur. [LAUGHTER] It was so busy. Like I said I had a very supportive husband and my sons were very helpful. My youngest son went to Huron at that time he transferred because we were in the final district, and so at that time was even more lenient now that people try and get students in and you replace this. He came to Huron where I was. But it started very early in the morning, I would get early in the morning. See, at one point my husband was principal of Northside Elementary School. I would always tease him and say, Get those kids ready before they get here to high school. But we were both involved. A typical day, there was always something going on. I would be in the hallways with the kids walking around during lunchtime. Lunchtime for a long time were horrible because kids used to eat in the hallways. It took us years to remedy that situation. Then we got those tree lunch periods which I don't like. My granddaughter told me her lunch period was at 10:30 or something. Really? Anyway, I would have to evaluate teachers and I loved doing that. There wasn't as much time to do that as I would like to do that. I had a team of administrators who I worked really hard. [LAUGHTER] We would sometime come on Saturday, we were always late. I was always going to sports events, dances, all activities, people want to see the principle there and you want to be there so that people can relate to you. I don't know how I got through those years, but I was younger. Not young, young because I didn't finish my degree till after I was married and had the kids and they were older. I had a lot of experience being an adult when I started teaching. I won't say that it was easier, but I just had experience working with children with my own children when I started. Then you had visitors coming to the school, wanting to see what was going on and there was faculty meetings where I work with the department chairs with the curriculum and those issues and I didn't find that all challenging and exciting. I loved my job. When I left, I was ready to go because I didn't think I had the energy to put into it like you said, but I loved the challenges and I loved working with young people.
[01:12:13] INTERVIEWER: That's actually I think. We're going to wrap it up now.
[01:12:21] Joetta Mial: Okay.
[01:12:22] INTERVIEWER: But let's just touch on one more thing before we do. What was something special that your family liked to do? You and your husband and your kids something when they were growing up before they left, that was particularly special?
[01:12:49] Joetta Mial: We always like to get together on holidays and when they were younger, we used to have really neat picnics with friends and family, and just being together. Going down to Detroit was a big deal when they were young, to go around Detroit to shop for Christmas. We would sometimes go down to, I can remember, what was it? The sound and music when they first got the wide screens and we would all go down. I can remember the kids were really little one Christmas that my husband took the kids down on the bus down to Detroit to go to shop and while I stayed back home. I guess they were going to shop for me too, so they didn't want me to go. But I thought that was all brave of him to take the kids down there and do that. But we liked doing things with friends and family and getting together on holidays. I'm trying to think when my sister moved to Atlanta, getting her and the family coming up and we having Thanksgiving together and things like that. When the kids were in Sunday school plays, Easter, Christmas, and things like that.
[01:14:38] INTERVIEWER: Sounds a lot like you growing up to the holidays were big deal with Thanksgiving? [OVERLAPPING]
[01:14:45] Joetta Mial: Yeah. But there were the difficult time, just teenagers and things they got into. [LAUGHTER]
[01:14:58] INTERVIEWER: Can imagine. That's wonderful. Thank you.
[01:15:01] Joetta Mial: You're welcome.
[01:15:02] INTERVIEWER: This is just the review of popular culture. Could you describe the popular music of the time period when you were an adult or married with your family?
[01:15:15] Joetta Mial: I was an adult, did you say? We went through a disco phase [LAUGHTER] and I was an adult then.
[01:15:34] Joetta Mial: In terms of music that I liked, in terms of popular, I just attended a Motown review, musical in Detroit, and so that reminded me of all the really good news that came out of Detroit. That was really big. I can remember my older boys trying to have a singing group. Everybody was into trying to perform. Well, this was just fun like and I can remember even as a principal at Huron the kids getting together and having talent shows with the music. That era was the most popular at that time in that phase of my adult life, I've been around a long time. [LAUGHTER]
[01:16:39] INTERVIEWER: What about dancing? Was there disco dancing?
[01:16:43] Joetta Mial: Did I go [OVERLAPPING] disco dance? Yeah. I went dancing with my husband. I went to dance adult, parties but we weren't really party people. I took dance, I think when I was a kid and so I was a pretty good dancer.
[01:17:04] INTERVIEWER: What kind of dance? [NOISE]
[01:17:09] Joetta Mial: I don't really remember names. The line dancing was popular then it's even more popular now in terms of so many different kind of dancing. But I'm not a dancer dancer, dance. [LAUGHTER] [NOISE]
[01:17:34] INTERVIEWER: Were there a popular clothing or a hairstyle with that of that time?
[01:17:43] Joetta Mial: I really need to know about what time period you're saying in terms of which part of my adult.
[01:17:53] INTERVIEWER: About mid-20s I want to say to maybe mid-40s or 50s.
[01:18:02] Joetta Mial: Well, let me see. One period there was really short dresses, they called them mini. [NOISE] I don't think I had very many minis, even in my 20s. Some of the styles actually have come back around. But at one point in this wasn't in my 20s where younger kids used to wear bobby socks and saddle shoes and black and brown or white shoes. I don't remember much about that, but it was sweaters. We had big sometimes colorful sweaters in the wintertime. I could use one right now. But I guess in terms of the fashion, I can't think of a lot on number anything that really stood out for me.
[01:19:18] INTERVIEWER: Okay. What about language? Were there any slang terms or phrases you can remember being popular? Maybe not that you used, maybe that your sons used a lot. [LAUGHTER]
[01:19:35] Joetta Mial: Let's see. I told you before, people say cool and they were saying that way back. My memory is not working very much this morning. They would say a cool cat, meaning a really cool guy. I'm not just not there [LAUGHTER] right now I can't think of anything.
[01:20:12] INTERVIEWER: Thinking back on that span of about 20 years, what were the most important social or historical events you can remember really standing out that either had a personal effect and really impacted you and your family, or they were just very big in your community or even nationwide?
[01:20:30] Joetta Mial: Well, probably all three of these. There was the impact of the civil rights movement and my husband was very active. He was the first full-time African-American teacher in Indiana Republic schools. There was one woman who was part-time, who was African-American, and our teacher, I believe she was. There was constant trying to live in areas, any place in the city. African- Americans were limited to certain areas. I can remember us picking Pits Hill Village, you know where that is. At one point they did not allow African- Americans to stay there. I actually have a picture someplace of my youngest son was. He was in a stroller and we were pushing him in the picket line as we protested, African-Americans not being allowed to stay there. Housing was a big issue. My husband and I did a lot in terms of trying to open up equity for everybody in housing. In fact, there was one meeting at city council where we were threatened to go to jail if we didn't disperse. But eventually, the council made a resolution that housing would be open to everyone. That was a really big deal. I can remember during that time, we used to get harassing phone calls and people saying nasty things and they once had some pizza delivered to our house that we didn't order and those kinds of things. In the school system we were fighting for equity, the black kids wanted more, they wanted to see themselves in the history and to have more African-American counselors and teachers. They wanted people that look like them in the system. There was a lot on the education of the housing front. There wasn't so much with restaurants, although there were a couple that did not serve African Americans. That was a big deal in our household and it was stressful. But there was such clarity in what needed to happen. People were very organized and trained to really stick to their guns and be consistent about what was needed. There were a number of things that were accomplished. That doesn't mean that the work is all done, but yes, it had a big impact on our family because we were going in school, going to school. I had three sons and the two older sons were involved at Pioneer High School in the disruptions that were there. So it had a big impact on our family.
[01:24:31] INTERVIEWER: That was wrapping up the working part up to mid '40s. Then this next part is again, a pretty long time period. It's from the time we were just talking about up until present. But we covered quite a bit in the last section, so we can just go from mid-40s to now.
[01:25:01] Joetta Mial: Okay.
[01:25:05] INTERVIEWER: One of this is very repetitive. We've done such a good job. [LAUGHTER] Describe the steps of the process involved in your job being a principal at Huron. From start to finish, what was involved? What kind of materials were used and how is that different from the way you see administration working today?
[01:25:32] Joetta Mial: In terms of how I got there or both?
[01:25:37] INTERVIEWER: Both.
[01:25:37] Joetta Mial: Okay.
[01:25:38] INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
[01:25:40] Joetta Mial: I started out teaching at Pioneer High School, English, speech communication. I was a supervisor for the school newspaper. That was a lot of fun for me working with the kids. I was there for three years. The opportunity came to apply for an assistant principalship at Huron. I applied and got it.
[01:26:34] Joetta Mial: In that particular assistant principalship, we call them class principals. You had a whole class that you filed through. I think that's somewhat like there is now, you don't have as many principles that money in the budget has had cutbacks in it. I went there and there were a lot of challenges. There was a lot of conflict going on among the students at that time, fighting for what they've figured for inequities. It was quite challenging, but at the same time, it was really rewarding. Again, I want to talk about the clarity of the issues back in the old days. It just seemed we knew what needed to be done. There is so much for kids to get involved in. We barely had cell phones. In fact, we didn't allow the students to have them when they first came out. Now, you just can't get by without a cell phone. There's a whole another issue in terms of working with students, of how you deal with that in terms of you don't want them on in class and texting in and doing all that other stuff. That's a whole another level of issues that folks have to deal with in school. About four years ago I went over to help out as an assistant over at Pioneer because they were shortage of staff. To me, it was a whole lot different than when I was here the last few years. There did not seem to be as much closeness between administration and counselors and a lot more issues to deal with. I think it's tougher now. But I'm not out there. I'm not as in touch with it, so not quite sure. I think the curriculum in terms of African American input is better than what it used to be. I know you all have a humanities course here. I can remember fighting for something like that inclusion in the regular humanities course. A group of us really tried to get more African input into that course when we were working. To try to sum it up, I think they're some disciplinary issues that we did not have to deal with. They're different. Now you can take courses online. I forgot what we tried to do something where we would have a teacher at one site and kids could tune in some way to take that course, but now you can take courses online. There's a whole lot of good things and then there's some negatives in terms of what staff has to deal with in terms of their students.
[01:31:04] INTERVIEWER: Besides obviously having all the educational background and going to school for that, what are some specific training or skill set you feel you need to have for that job? Obviously, behavioral dealing with that, is there anything else that you think really stood out even that you just learned from experience?
[01:31:30] Joetta Mial: I was an adult when I went back to school and got my degrees. I had experiences as being a mom and raising children that some of the other younger teachers did not have. But you can't just get it all from your academic learning. You need to be able to in terms of classroom management and how to interact with a diverse population. Working with parents, now we have a lot of parent groups. I had some really supportive parent groups. When I was working at [inaudible 01:32:23]. There was a PTSO and then there was the US parent group and then there was the black parent group. They were very helpful in coming and supporting what was going on in the classroom. In a black parent group, we had parents come and talk to our faculty about how their students felt and what they wanted from the school system. There was a lot of open communication during the time that I was there. [NOISE] There were so many issues about the crowding at Pioneer, whether or not to build another high school, how you are going to be able to maintain it. There are a lot more issues now. I think the high school was needed and I know there are a lot of people that will disagree with that. I think there probably is a struggle to maintain it. But just because students are piled in and are making it to a crowded system doesn't mean that needs to be happening, that they don't necessarily need that experience.
[01:34:00] INTERVIEWER: You spoke about technology a little bit. What would you say, obviously cell phones? But what else do you think are the main technology changes from when you were the counselor working until now?
[01:34:15] Joetta Mial: One of the things that access to computers and everybody having one and more in the school system, I just think that's wonderful. My grandson was at my house early evening and he was on a computer studying for his exam. My son can go online and check report cards and there's communication with the teacher. I think that's just wonderful. You can just get it right away.
[01:34:56] INTERVIEWER: We already covered that. We're doing so well. We've covered so much [LAUGHTER] This is a very good question. How would you say you judge excellence within your field? What makes someone respected?
[01:35:14] Joetta Mial: You're talking about like a teacher or?
[01:35:16] INTERVIEWER: A teacher or administration, any faculty that works with academics like this.
[01:35:26] Joetta Mial: Well, I think you really have to have a passion to work with young people. You need not only be passionate about your subject matter that you're teaching, but be able to transfer that so that the students can learn it. You just have to deal with all those different issues. If you don't like doing that and you shouldn't be there, you need to find something else to do something that you're passionate about. I think when people are willing to give of themselves and have integrity and just really loving young people and wanting them to do their very best and to believe that each student you want to be able to pull out from each students the very best from them. You need to know ways to do that and I don t think you're born with that all the time. Some people may be, but there's always ways of trying to better yourself to do that.
[01:37:18] INTERVIEWER: What do you value most about that career?
[01:37:23] Joetta Mial: About my career?
[01:37:24] INTERVIEWER: Yeah. About being the Slovenian teacher. What was the most valuable thing? You just answered it.
[01:37:32] Joetta Mial: Working with young people. But in doing so, you have to work with a whole bunch of other people. You can't just focus on them. You've got to deal with the parents, the teachers, other administrators, the central office folks. But the key focus, the students and helping them to reach their potential being good citizens and making sure they're feeling that they're really confident and being loved to go out there. My parents instilled in me that I could do anything I wanted to be that was a long time ago when things were a lot tougher.
[01:38:20] INTERVIEWER: So important to have?
[01:38:24] Joetta Mial: Yeah.
[01:38:28] INTERVIEWER: Did you move around as you got older, like from the '50s on, did you move around a lot?
[01:38:38] Joetta Mial: No, we didn't. We first got married. We stayed Ypsilanti about a year and then we move to Ann Arbor and we're staying in Ann Arbor in different houses, but and we stayed in Ann Arbor. My husband at onetime worked for the federal government during summers and we were eventually for the Labor Department. We thought we were going to move to the DC area, but the funding didn't come through for the job and so we ended up staying here.
[01:39:27] INTERVIEWER: The next set of questions covers retirement to present life. A little bit more. Hopefully your question [inaudible 01:39:38] .
[01:39:39] Joetta Mial: I'm going to have to blow my nose.
[01:39:41] INTERVIEWER: That's totally fine. You want to take a break yourself?
[01:39:43] Joetta Mial: Yeah, I've to. It's my allergies and the cold makes it worse. My eyes water and my nose run. From now to something to retirement?
[01:40:10] INTERVIEWER: Yes. From retirement years to now. How did that change once all of your children moved out of the house and it was just you and your husband or when you both retired? How was that different?
[01:40:31] Joetta Mial: I retired in '94. My husband had retired earlier because he had some heart problems. He had been the principal of Northside Elementary and then went on to central administration. When he retired, he was a central administration officer. It was different but for a while, the boys were all away. Now, two of them are back in the area and one is in New York. It was different. My husband who had retired first, used to say, when I got this one award, he said that I had to find something to do because I was not principle of the universe. He was indicating that I was telling him trying to change his life and he'd been there about six years before I came on retired. It was different. Then I consulted with the North Central Association for about 10 or 12 years and I would go around, my beat was South Eastern and mid Michigan and I would go around to schools helping with their school improvement plan. That was a lot of fun, it was lots of fun to go to the different areas and meet with staff and faculty. Sometimes they had students on the school improvement teams of how to make their school better and terms. That was fun. I did that for about 10 or 12 years. I also did some consulting with, it was the Coleman Project. Dr. Coleman who was a psychologist out in Connecticut, had a model for bringing parents, students, and staff altogether to improve the whole school setting. I worked with that model with Professor Norm Martin, who was a professor at Eastern at the time. I did a little bit with that, so that was fun.
[01:43:21] INTERVIEWER: That sounds fun. How does life changed since your husband passed away?
[01:43:27] Joetta Mial: I still miss him very much. He was a very strong personnel, very opinionated, and did a lot for the community. We just did a lot together, we did civil rights together. It wasn't always easy, we had lots of challenges and difficulties, but it was different. I'm still in the process of I'm I going to continue to stay in my home that's quite large. But I have lots of friends. My husband always said he would never leave the area [LAUGHTER] so people say, some people move away and go different places. I'm probably here to stay. Thinking about the weather today and the winter last year, I think I would like to spend more time someplace where it was warm, but I don't want another place. I can't keep up the one that I have [LAUGHTER] but I still have, some of the same friends and do a lot. I'm very involved in the community, but it's just very different.
[01:45:08] INTERVIEWER: What is a typical day life or a typical day like now? Obviously you're still very involved so what kind of things would you do on an average day?
[01:45:22] Joetta Mial: This is not an average day being here at 09:00 in the morning, on a cold winter morning. I sleep later [LAUGHTER]
[01:45:32] Joetta Mial: I try to stay fairly active in terms of exercise because I've had some heart problems that I need to do cardiac, but I was doing exercise before any of that. I usually do that. I have a bunch of lunch groups that we meet once a month [LAUGHTER] and I visit my good friend in Glacier Hills. I try to do that and some other of my friends who have been less fortunate than me and I try to see them on a fairly regular basis. I go to church and I belong to a couple of the church groups and I'm involved in that. I'm trying to get off is some of the boards that I've been on. I'm still involved with the African-American Museum. I'm on their board. I work with an SOS Community Services, which is a group that deals with homelessness. I was on their board for 12 years as President. I still do a little bit with them because it's just so important to work that they do. We've had a marketing problem of getting it out to the people. Just how much we do and with funds being cut back, it's just a very worthy thing to be involved. I'm not as involved as I used to be, but still work with them a little bit. I do have fun. I love to go to concerts and musicals and plays and I used to be on the University of Musical Society board and was really involved with them in their meetings. I still go to a number of their concerts and things. That was a true fun learning experience working with University Musical Society. I was on the program committee and the educational committee. The educational committee and they go into the schools and they just have wonderful programs for the kids and the schools.
[01:48:13] INTERVIEWER: Is that the Motown thing you went it was?
[01:48:16] Joetta Mial: I went to Motown, but that it wasn't part of the way. No. That was just something fun to do.
[01:48:26] INTERVIEWER: You said one of your sons is in New York, but the other two are here. What do you enjoy doing together now? What is your favorite things to do for fun or with them?
[01:48:37] Joetta Mial: With them, I'll have dinner with them. Then a one son two children of my grandkids, it's fun being with them. They come over, we have a good time together. They're bossy now. They're trying to like they're the parent, this role reversal, telling mom what to do. But they mean well. I can remember my mom died first and then my dad was I think it was a number of years before he died. He lived in Jackson, but I would go up some weekends and stay with them and try to tell him what to do. Now it's coming back to me that the boys are trying to tell me what to do. But we have fun with the grandkids and I do a lot with them back-and-forth, picking them up when going out to eat and just having fun doing things with them.
[01:49:50] INTERVIEWER: That's sweet. When you think about your life during retirement years, what were the big social events or historical events from like these past 20 years?
[01:50:14] Joetta Mial: There's just continuing the struggle for rights. That's just there. Oh, the presidential election and electing the first African-American president was really a big deal. Social in terms of?
[01:50:51] INTERVIEWER: Social in terms of maybe just ways that your day-to-day life was slightly changed based on things that happened historically, based on new rights that were gained. How did life change then from that? [NOISE]
[01:51:14] Joetta Mial: When I became principal, that was I considered it to some of the efforts of my husband because I was the first female and first African-American of the comprehensive high school. At that time there were two large high school, so I was the first African-American, the first female. At the time, Joseph Dueling was principal of Roberto Clemente and Connie Craft was principal of community. But there hadn't been females or an African American at the two large high schools. That was a change that had been brought about from efforts from other people for that to happen. That was changed. The way technology has entered I had someone type my dissertation and now with a computer how you can just get rid of stuff that instead of using a whiteout. [LAUGHTER] That has had a big impact on me. I don't know. As you get older, you don't spend a lot of time on minutiae and you look at the bigger picture and evaluate. Do you want to spend your time on this small stuff that's agitating you, or do you want to move on and forward with that. In that sense, it's different for me. I still seem to be doing a lot of running around.
[01:53:48] INTERVIEWER: Thinking back and everything we've covered so far about the major historical events or social events, what would you say is the most, maybe not the most important, but the one that had the most impact on you and your family personally?
[01:54:12] Joetta Mial: Oh, there's so much. I think the work that my husband was doing in the community, definitely my becoming principle of Herron High School. It had a big impact on my life and those around me. My involvement with my church family to all the years I belong to the same church has had an impact on my life. Having a church family, just helps you be more secure. I've been very blessed to have a lot of respect from people and part of that is you're giving back to people. When much is given much is expected for you, to do and you just need to do that.
[01:55:52] INTERVIEWER: Do you have any family heirloom or keeps stakes that are extremely special or have a meaningful or special story behind them?
[01:56:12] Joetta Mial: Family, Aaron. I have some crystal that my mom and dad gave me for a wedding present that I still have. I don't use it, but I have it. But it does have meaning for me and I have pictures of my folks, my parents but I can't think I still have a watch of my fathers that I still have. I was going to give it to one of my sons. I couldn't decide which one to give it to, so I kept it, [LAUGHTER] but that I guess I could consider as an airline.
[01:57:25] INTERVIEWER: So these last few questions are just like wisdom and advice you have for us. Thinking back on your entire life, what are you most proud of? Maybe of yourself or your husband or your children? What sticks out.
[01:57:59] Joetta Mial: Now you said you wanted advice or whatever.
[01:58:02] INTERVIEWER: The next few words. This is kind of reflection. The next fewer advice for us.
[01:58:07] Joetta Mial: Advice for young people?
[01:58:09] INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Advice for a generation.
[01:58:16] Joetta Mial: I think that to really know yourself, don't let people or other things define you. Some of my generation were told in schools that they weren't suited or couldn't be able to attain certain kinds of careers or education. Don't let people do that to you. Be sincere, have an openness about you so that you can listen to other people. Make up your own mind about what it is that you want to do. But also, you want to get as much education as you can because of what's out there. But just know yourself and have a faith in something, something you can pull and reach for when things get tough for you. But in trying to sum it up, have an open mind so you can sometimes put yourself in another person's place about, maybe you're upset with this person and maybe you could look and say, well, if I put myself in his or her place, how would I feel about that? So be open. Don't let anybody define you. Get as much education as you can and be passionate about what you want to do.
[02:00:47] INTERVIEWER: Okay. Our very last question is, I've asked you a lot of questions, but is there anything that you really want to share, any story, anything that I did not ask you about that you feel will be meaningful.
[02:01:04] Joetta Mial: Maybe but I can't think of it right now. [LAUGHTER]
[02:01:07] INTERVIEWER: That's totally fine.
[02:01:18] Joetta Mial: Just during the time, I just think my dissertation was really valued learning experience because it dealt with the two students over a ten-year period at the two high schools and what did it take to make African-American students more successful than they had been? One of the things, one of the key findings was that students should be in, at that time we call the mid to upper level courses and not be in lower level courses. That sounds really simple but it's not because you have to have people surrounding you, helping you be able to perform at that higher level and those courses. But that was the key thing. Students who were in the upper level courses performed better outside of High School.
[02:02:44] INTERVIEWER: Thank you so much. When and where did you grow up?
[02:02:47] Joetta Mial: Jackson, Michigan.
[02:02:51] INTERVIEWER: Could you describe a couple of activities that you used to do as a child that you were very fond of?
[02:03:01] Joetta Mial: I was very fond of music. I took piano lessons, dance lessons, voice lessons. But then when I became a teenager, I just dropped all of them. Didn't think it was important, but I really enjoyed music.
[02:03:27] INTERVIEWER: What was happening in terms of events going on around you that had an impact on your family or yourself individually around that time?
[02:03:43] Joetta Mial: There were a number of different kinds of things. You're still talking about when I was younger. Our family seemed more cohesive when I compare it to today. There seemed to be a lot of family binding quite a few relatives there in Jackson and we used to have picnics and those kinds of things. The war started and where I didn't really know anyone that went to the war because my dad didn't go in but it had an impact on the family in terms of actually, my mom and dad ended up working in a factory and so it was like more income during that time. But there was also, I can remember, rationing of food during the war and those kinds of things. I can remember distinctly we used to gather around the radio to listen to fight and Joe Louis was the peak hero of the black community. I mean, he was totally a hero for all the community. But I can remember sitting around a radio listening to the fight and I remember when he got beat by Mac smelling who was a German, everybody was just so heartbroken but then he came back and beat him. So those kinds of things. Life was segregated in some ways. We lived in a mixed neighborhood. I would say lower middle-class and I think I talked before about the segregated skating. But it didn't have, as a child, it didn't have a huge impact on me.
[02:06:19] INTERVIEWER: I love this one. What adjectives comes to mind when you think about about your dad?
[02:06:27] Joetta Mial: Warmth, loving, active, survivor, spiritual.
[02:06:51] INTERVIEWER: What role did education play in your childhood?
[02:06:57] Joetta Mial: It was huge. There was a real push from my parents and really the small community that we get as much education as we can, even though my mother graduated from high school and my father didn't, but he was very smart and productive. But there was a real push, and we looked at role models through magazines and things like that too. It was just known that you should get as much education as you can.
[02:07:47] INTERVIEWER: What made you aware of that value of education than your family?
[02:07:53] Joetta Mial: Our parents and in school, some of the teachers. I was a pretty smart kid. [LAUGHTER] People would take more time with you, and then there was our church where that was always pushed in terms of getting an education. Jackson Community College was there, and I actually did a semester there before I started. It really was my parents and the people around me thinking that an education is the best way to try to get out of some of the strangleholds that you may be in.
[02:08:58] INTERVIEWER: Can you describe some of the choices that you personally made in terms of education that have reflected on [inaudible 02:09:05] of education? This wouldn't be as a child, this would be now thinking back, because people around you valued your education. How do you feel now knowing that you had that support exactly?
[02:09:25] Joetta Mial: I just feel that it's really necessary in terms of my being an educator, of how much support and expectations you should have for a young person as much support as you can give them and have high expectations for them. That just drilled in my brain that you want people to reach their potential and you want to help them as much as you can get there. You want to raise the bar and let them know that it's possible for them to overreach it.
[02:10:15] INTERVIEWER: That was the first chunk of questions. The next are you doing all right?
[02:10:22] Joetta Mial: Let me wipe my eyes again. No, I'm absolutely looking at you, right? [LAUGHTER]
[02:10:28] INTERVIEWER: Yes. I know it's been awhile.
[02:10:30] Joetta Mial: I know. How did your editing go? Are you doing it yet?
[02:10:38] INTERVIEWER: Well, we've just started the process. Eli is our editor.
[02:10:40] Joetta Mial: Okay.
[02:10:41] Eli Kirshner: It's going alright. You look great on camera [LAUGHTER] as you can see. I think, we were new to the process when we started this call. It's been a real learning experience for all of us. Hopefully, the final product will be [inaudible 02:10:59].
[02:11:02] Joetta Mial: [LAUGHTER] Okay.
[02:11:03] Eli Kirshner: Which you'll will see, of course.
[02:11:05] Joetta Mial: Oh, yeah. [NOISE]
[02:11:08] INTERVIEWER: Ready to roll?
[02:11:09] Joetta Mial: Yeah.
[02:11:10] INTERVIEWER: The next questions are focused on your career and education. When did you start your career in education?
[02:11:17] Joetta Mial: When did I start the career in education? I started teaching at Pioneer High School, 1972-1973 school year. For me, it was a long journey. I got married early. I had gone to Cleary College before. Had a number of secretarial job, got married, had three children, and I took some corresponding courses while I was married, and then went to University of Michigan. In the, let's see, full-time, I forgot in what year, but I had a lot of support, not only from my husband but from my three sons. After I got my bachelor's, I got a job at Pioneer teaching communication courses and English, and it was really fun, I really liked being in a classroom. I stayed there three years before I was promoted to an assistant principal at Huron. I had not thought about really going into administration, but felt that I can reach more kids and people and have a greater influence on how things should go. I went over to Huron and I think it was school year '74, '75, and I was an assistant for 12 years and then made principle for eight. After that when I retired, I consulted with North Central Association helping schools with their school improvement programs and also Dr. James Calmer, a psychologist out of Yale University. He had another school improvement program and a friend of mine, Professor nor Martin got me involved in helping with that. I continue to do things not in a formal way with education.
[02:14:30] INTERVIEWER: Could you briefly list some of the main highlights in that career of education? Could be from any of [inaudible 02:14:33] positions of administration.
[02:14:41] Joetta Mial: There's so many.
[02:14:43] INTERVIEWER: Well, that's good.
[02:14:51] Joetta Mial: At Pioneer High School, the three years I was there was during the uprising of students in terms of wanting more to be seen more in the curriculum, in terms of black studies and African input. Those negotiations and working with students, and staff, and parents through that was quite something. Then over to Huron we had the same issues, and working through that. At the time I was there, Huron was the most diverse school in the district, and so there were a lot of challenges of trying to get people to work together The formation of a scoop, understanding and sharing diversity is one of the highlights of working with students, and working with their peers or trying to sell them. I went to Vienna, Austria with the acapella choir, and it was so wonderful that I'll just never forget that. Go in there with those young people and the staff that went and traveling around having them saying in different places, and it was just a wonderful experience. Working with curriculum issues which I always considered one of my fortes of trying to format the best way and instruction and working with students. How can you get the best from them? What kinds of things do you need to do? Particularly, with students who don't always have the support that they need at home and other places. I just consider that a real challenge and something so worthwhile. I think teachers should be paid some of the highest salaries because you're preparing them to take over, and it's not seen that way. Those are just some of the highlights. I loved all the athletic games so much so that now I can't watch anything all the way through [LAUGHTER] if I have any investment in the team. I think athletics and all kinds of extracurricular activities, I like to call them co-curricular activities. I think helps students find their niche, and so that they can shine in all areas. I think finding something besides just sitting in a classroom is just so very helpful.
[02:18:33] INTERVIEWER: Describe how the choices that you made personally in your years of your career, how that reflected the value of you and your family's values and education.
[02:18:58] Joetta Mial: I got into education because my husband was in it. He was just a really strong advocate of students. His influence on me was great in terms of my choosing the way that I did. He was a principal for so long at Northside School and I had not really thought of administration, but I did because of him. I think for my family, his family and him, that the strong spiritual and getting people to reach their potential and help others. I think that those decisions that I made to do what I did, reflecting what I was doing in my life.
[02:20:19] INTERVIEWER: Describe a typical day as an educator in [inaudible 02:20:22] public schools that can be
[02:20:29] Joetta Mial: It was never a dull moment. Never, ever. You can have things planned and you really did need to have things planned. But I hear now that the high schools are going to start 15 minutes later and we always had to start at 07:30. I'm not an early morning person but I had to be there. You would get there and greet the kids, if they're coming in. Teach you through it all, this is me as principal now, and teachers would be coming in with different issues to deal with you. It's hard to believe now, but when I was an assistant principal, we used to have a smoking room for students. I would come home in my clothes, would be and my hair, would all smell like smoke. That was way back there again and administrators had to supervise and there would be a room next to the cafeteria. That was interesting. Finally, we phased that out. But there was even in the disciplining of students, which is always a challenge. But you want it to be fair and equitable. That would take place. Something was always happening, not always large. We had visitors coming in from different countries wanting to see how the American system high-school worked. There were PTS own meetings. In the evening there were athletic events, there were cultural events, plays, and musicals all the time. You were just in constant movement. You didn't have time to get bored. At that time I had four assistants and we would meet often and stay in touch with each other to help run the school. We would oftentimes go to the cafeteria and supervise and talk with the kids and help them. There were meetings, several meetings with students, there were meetings with parents. There were supervisory duties. I would meet once a month with the department chairs to deal with the curriculum, things like that that was all. You had some kind of meeting every day and constant interaction with students, staff, and parents.
[02:24:08] INTERVIEWER: Describe two or three different struggles that you may have faced as an educator or administrator and how they were resolved and how you dealt with them.
[02:24:22] Joetta Mial: Well, the one big one was the one of the staff members used inward. We ended up developing this whole structure to deal with the issue of diversity, equity and so that it carried on throughout the school for a long time. I think it helped set the stage for continued improvement. That was one of the biggest issues. The issue of dealing with equity in what has been called the achievement gap continues to be a struggle. We had a number of programs and systems worked out within the school and training for staff and over the years, the whole district to do anything. Recently I noted in the paper were there, they had seen some improvement in scores and in other areas. That issue hasn't been resolved, but everybody seemed to be working on it. It's just taking an awful long time and a lot of hard work. Those are two big issues and none of them had been completely resolved and maybe they never will be hope it won't be in my time. But as long as people are making a sincere effort and just not talking about it and theorizing what should happen and continue to grow and try to make an impact. Because it just has an impact really on the whole world. If you've got a group of people who are achieving and it's going to pull everybody down. You don't think so when rather than having a small group of people as students or whatever making it. Then you have this gap here. That's not going to work for the whole, when you're helping somebody else is going to help everybody because everybody is going to be working.
[02:27:55] INTERVIEWER: Another quick break before our last session.
[02:28:08] INTERVIEWER: The last questions relate to your wisdom and your truth.
[02:28:11] Joetta Mial: My what?
[02:28:12] INTERVIEWER: Your wisdom and your truth.
[02:28:14] Joetta Mial: [LAUGHTER] Okay.
[02:28:20] INTERVIEWER: Briefly describe the social justice research that was part of your dissertation in your PhD.
[02:28:31] Joetta Mial: My PhD. I really had fun working on it. People tried to rush me to get a topic, just to get it over with but I couldn't work on something that I wasn't truly, really interested in. What I looked at was trying to see how it ends a sense dealt with the achievement gap. We were trying to look at what variables existed that would help students go on to further success, further their education beyond high school. We got it down to those students who took the more academically challenging classes were the ones that went on to further their education in some way, and that sound really simple but it's not. You have to first encourage and support and help kids get into those level courses. We were talking about the regular accelerated NAP. I haven't looked closely at the curriculum now, so I'm not sure what folks I know a lot of interesting things are happening. But the more rigorously academic classes, the more of instance where students are going to go on and be more successful after high school and go on to college or to service or to a community college or whatever to further their education.
[02:30:39] INTERVIEWER: So how did that research expand your world view, what was going on in you?
[02:30:46] Joetta Mial: It validated my thinking of what I knew without the data. Doing the research it was really validating in looking at what other people had found out, and it was just not okay. I told you so, [LAUGHTER] not like that. But to help other people understand, this is what you need to do in order to do that. That was very helpful to me.
[02:31:34] INTERVIEWER: Was there a specific event or set of series of events that served as a catalyst for your civil rights activism?
[02:31:51] Joetta Mial: Again, I want to go back to my husband because he was really the front-runner out there in the community. One of the things was housing in Ann Arbor. There were very segregated housing.
[02:32:17] INTERVIEWER: I'm so sorry.
[02:32:19] Joetta Mial: No problem. Very segregated housing and black people could not live in different parts of the city. You're familiar with Pitts Hill Village? At that time back there, I have a picture of some place of my husband and I and two of my sons. My youngest son was in a stroller and we were protesting outside of Pitts Hill Village because they wouldn't allow black people there. That really was a catalyst because my husband was on what was then called a housing commission. The people were rallied around in Ann Arbor, black and white and other to integrate this Pitts Field housing and that was a catalyst to move to other housing. That was a big issue and the things that were happening in the schools that were not equitable. [inaudible 02:33:36]
[02:33:46] INTERVIEWER: Describing your work in civil rights, I think we might have already touched on that when you're talking about what you did as an educator, is there anything else you'd have to say about that in your career?
[02:33:57] Joetta Mial: I think I have been blessed to have the opportunity to be in a role and to communicate with people, to try and educate and make things more equitable for everybody, and so I consider that an opportunity. It's not about me, it's about what happens with the information that you're spreading or trying to inculcate with people. If things continue to improve, you can say, wow your efforts were worth it, but that's what you should be doing. That's what people should be doing. I'm pleased to have had the opportunity to try and do something.
[02:35:33] INTERVIEWER: The last few questions are about what you would like to pass on. The first one is about for today's parents and students, what lessons would you like today's generation as students and parents to know about just what you learned in all your years of experience?
[02:36:06] Joetta Mial: With parents and students. There has to be or there needs to be a loving, warm relationship, so you can do these other things that you want your child to accomplish. It's such a different world now that students need to feel confident and parents need to help build that confidence so that they can achieve the same. We're all going to make mistakes, learn from your mistakes. Love no matter what happens [LAUGHTER] between parents and children, love them anyway. That gives you insight to help guide them and encourage them to get as much education as they can and to keep improvement and when they get there to give back to the community, so that you just keep building a stair of support for the total community.
[02:37:55] INTERVIEWER: What lessons from your work in civil rights would you like to pass to people today?
[02:38:06] Joetta Mial: That's a struggle, is definitely not over. While you have the energy and passion, do what you can to do, no matter. Just one individual can make a difference in maybe one person's life. Life has become so complicated and so much out there but as we look at the world today and all of the uprising and things that are going on, I'm just going to go ahead and say it. When we look at President Obama, and when everybody was so happy when he got in, and then all of the things that meanness, not meanness in some racism and things that balled up to the surface that were hidden before. We have a lot to work on just search your heart, do what you need to do, and help other people.
[02:39:35] INTERVIEWER: Thank you so much.
[02:39:36] Joetta Mial: [LAUGHTER] You're welcome.
[02:39:36] INTERVIEWER: Is there anything else you want to say?
[02:39:40] Joetta Mial: No, I applaud you all for this project that you're doing because I think it's worthwhile to pass on to other people

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2022

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Legacies Project