AADL Talks To Jim Toy and Jackie Simpson

Fri, 11/11/2011 - 9:50am

November 18, 2011 marked the 40th anniversary of the University of Michigan’s Spectrum Center, making it the oldest LGBT student organization in the country. AADL spoke with Jackie Simpson, the director of the Spectrum Center, and Jim Toy, one of the two people who founded the organization in 1971. Jackie and Jim talked about the beginning of the organization, its history and ongoing development, and the challenges and joys of the center today. 

Transcript

• [00:00:07.95] ANDREW: Hi this is Andrew.
• [00:00:09.85] AMY: And this is Amy, and in this episode, AADL talks to Jackie Simpson and James [Jim] Toy.
• [00:00:16.06] ANDREW: Last month, Peter spoke with Jackie Simpson, current director of the University of Michigan Spectrum Center, and James [Jim] Toy, co-founder of the Center in 1971, then called the Human Sexuality Office. Toy and Simpson compared the social climate for LGBT people in the early '70s with today, and discuss the influence of the office on its 40th anniversary.
• [00:00:36.71] JIM TOY: I helped co-found the now-called Spectrum Center.
• [00:00:41.90] AMY: In 1971.
• [00:00:43.26] JIM TOY: In 1971.
• [00:00:45.41] ANDREW: And it was called the Human Sexuality Office?
• [00:00:48.57] JIM TOY: For about 15 years, yeah.
• [00:00:50.00] PETER: So in 1971 when you co-founded it, that was the time of Vietnam, the feminist movement, tail end of the Civil Rights era. What was the social climate like for LGBT people at that time?
• [00:01:03.81] JIM TOY: In my memory, it was just beginning to lighten and brighten. The Stonewall Riots had come about in the end of June, 1969, and then there got founded in Manhattan the Gay Liberation Front. And we founded in Detroit the Gay Liberation Movement, January 1970. And in Ann Arbor, the Gay Liberation Front in March 1970.
• [00:01:35.33] PETER: And just after that you got involved with the University and founded the Human Sexuality Office?
• [00:01:42.17] JIM TOY: Yes, and the process for that creation, simplistically, began when the Gay Liberation Front in Ann Arbor requested space for a statewide conference of what we then called gay groups. Then President Fleming responding to our memo of request with a formal letter, saying I deny use of university facilities for this, quote, conference. It would not be educational enough, and we would have to have police presence on campus.
• [00:02:26.59] So a closeted member of the Gay Liberation Front, Jerry DeGrieck who was then vice-president of student government, said to me forget him, I have the keys to the Student Activities Building. In those years, that building was totally used by student groups there was not a bureaucratic office in it. So we had the conference.
• [00:02:52.07] In the Michigan Union one day, ran across the secretary to whom I had given the memo of request for a conference. Secretary said Jim, do you know there's an office here for Black students? I said, no, I didn't know that. Do you know there's an office here for women students? I didn't know that. Don't you guys want an office? And I said I don't know, I'll go ask the Gay Liberation Front.
• [00:03:21.97] So at the next meeting I said, apparently there is here an office for the concerns of women students, and an office for the concerns of Black students. What do you think, do we want an office? And they looked at me and said are you some kind of fool? Yes, go get it!
• [00:03:39.57] I go back to the secretary and said, how do we get an office? Write me a memo. In this case, the memo was much more successful than the memo we had written requesting conference space. And in less than a year, the university responded to our memo of request by establishing the office.
• [00:04:00.13] PETER: And was it difficult to find supportive allies in the administration and in the general public that would push for that?
• [00:04:13.57] JIM TOY: In those years it was relatively easy to find allies. For example, the vice-president of student affairs and his administrative secretary were instrumental in bringing about the creation of the office. We had support from another member of the administration who was asked by a high-level university official, can't you make this all go away? And our ally's response was no, I can not.
• [00:04:55.57] We had support from Students for a Democratic Society, that's SDS, Women's Liberation, and so on. And so yes, there was support from the beginning.
• [00:05:08.03] PETER: Do you think that the time would have been right if you were in a different place in the country?
• [00:05:16.82] JIM TOY: It's conceivable were we in a relatively friendly place such as, presumably, Madison, New York City, somewhere San Francisco, Los Angeles, possibly Chicago, it's certainly possible.
• [00:05:38.31] PETER: From what I understand, a lot of what you were doing in the early years was education. So coming into classrooms and talking to the students, or seminars, all that sort of thing. Were people receptive to being taught?
• [00:05:59.54] JIM TOY: One of the four aspects of our work was indeed, and it still is, education. The other components of our outreach were counseling, working with student groups, and advocating for our civil rights. The educational piece we began, and it's now the Speakers Bureau, in 1972 or 1973.
• [00:06:31.61] An instructor in the psychology department contacted us and said, could you send some people over to talk about your concerns? So three of us, all male, went to the class and sat on the desk in the front of the room, and spoke and responded to questions from the students. And at the end, the students applauded. Yes, we were well-received.
• [00:06:58.53] PETER: Did you also get that sort of reception when training faculty? Did you train faculty? I'm assuming you did.
• [00:07:09.86] JIM TOY: To use that particular word, we did not train faculty. Some faculty were friendly to us and others were not. There was a professor in the psychology department who taught a course on psychopathology, and informed the students that a homosexual orientation was psychopathological. So more than once, I don't remember how many times, we went into his classroom uninvited, interrupted the proceedings, went to the front.
• [00:07:50.48] He was quite polite and said oh, if you have something to say, please say it. So after two or three incursions, I'll use that word, to his classroom, he got in touch with us and said you know, if you want to promulgate your point of view, why don't you start a course? And simultaneously, one of the members of the Gay Liberation Front had, indeed, created some kind of special studies course in LS&A and was setting forth our views.
• [00:08:26.50] PETER: And what's LS&A?
• [00:08:28.69] JIM TOY: Literature, Science and the Arts, excuse me. That's a division of the university's academic departments, and it may be the largest one. I don't know, Jackie, is that the largest?
• [00:08:41.64] JACKIE SIMPSON: I think it is the largest.
• [00:08:42.32] JIM TOY: OK.
• [00:08:43.36] PETER: So that office was the first staff office ever created for queer students in a place of higher learning. Have you seen it influence the larger picture of queer students in universities and colleges around the country, maybe around the world?
• [00:09:01.93] JIM TOY: Jackie's well-equipped to speak to that.
• [00:09:04.27] JACKIE SIMPSON: Well, so is Jim. I would say the short answer to that question is certainly yes. I think from when Jim started it, and even for the past 40 years what where we're coming up to. I mean, there's been consistent calls, visits, invites to talk with other university institutions, high schools, to help them figure out how to create something similar in their environments.
• [00:09:40.06] And unfortunately, in some way-- I'm grateful-- but unfortunately in some way there's still four or five calls a week from other institutions across the country and the world. I'm talking to somebody from Mexico this week about how to do this in their university, institution, or college.
• [00:10:06.79] PETER: So you said you work with high school students also. Do you get contacted, would you say, more by the students, or by schools who want to create a better environment for their students? What does that look like?
• [00:10:23.92] JACKIE SIMPSON: I would say that the contact initially comes first from the students themselves. We currently have a mentorship program with college students and Riot Youth from the Neutral Zone. And many students who, at least in this area, who are part of their GSAs and Pioneer High School or Community High talk to us about doing something at their institution, at their middle school or high school. So from that perspective, it usually comes in that form and then we would try to make contact with their advisor, or whoever is working with them at that middle school or high school so that we can just make sure we're all on the same page about where we're trying to go.
• [00:11:14.63] JIM TOY: Let me speak to the history of that involvement. In 1977, a junior at Pioneer High School in Ann Arbor called-- we had a separate telephone listed under the name of Gay Hotline-- called the hotline and said I'd like to speak with somebody. And is it possible to meet somebody? So I said sure, I'll be glad to meet you in the basement-level of the Union, and then we'll go talk. So the student and I talked, and the student said, you know, there needs to be youth group.
• [00:11:58.75] So our office and the Ann Arbor Gay Liberation Front were in close contact with Ozone House-- and this is 1977-1978-- and with Drug Help which existed then. So I called Ozone House and said I, as a university employee, do not feel I can take the risk of openly working with high school students because they're not of legal age. They would like to start a group.
• [00:12:30.53] And Ozone House said absolutely. Who would be the adviser? I said I would. They said just come on over, we have meeting space and we would be really glad to host you. So we started, the title was the Little Lambda's Group, L-A-M- B- D-A, at Ozone House thanks to their hospitality, and that's 1978.
• [00:13:01.00] PETER: The University of Michigan is regularly rated as one of the best universities for LGBT or queer students in the country. You talked about not feeling comfortable putting yourself in the position of working with minors. Was there a shift in public attitude at some point that allowed a greater freedom for working with minors and really everyone?
• [00:13:35.61] JIM TOY: Let me start by reporting that any number of people in the larger Ann Arbor and Washtenaw County community came to the office and said we need A, B and C, can you help? So I went to the then vice-president for student affairs, Henry Johnson, and explained this concern. And after some time he agreed, well, to the degree that your resources permit, sure, go ahead and work with community members. So we began to do that, that's probably in the late '70s.
• [00:14:15.76] JACKIE SIMPSON: I would say that I think time has certainly probably made it somewhat easier to do this work with minors. I would not say that it's not something we still don't think about today. So even though we were creating the mentorship program with Riot Youth, we were still in conversation with our general counsel's office in regards to creating this program. And so I think we've made progress over time, but it's still a concern that we think about and address today.
• [00:14:59.53] PETER: OK.
• [00:15:03.45] JIM TOY: In those years that I've already mentioned, people called the Gay Hotline asking for counseling. We provided peer counseling. And then after I obtained a Masters of Social Work degree, I provided professional counseling.
• [00:15:21.82] And sometimes we had to go out and speak with people not on the campus. And some of them would say we can't get to your meetings because we don't have any transportation, can you provide it? And we had to say this is very difficult since, as an example, you are still not of legal age. We would be at great risk transporting you, so we couldn't. Well, they got creative and got to meetings, nonetheless.
• [00:15:53.82] Let me tell another story, that is if you want.
• [00:15:57.08] PETER: Sure.
• [00:15:58.07] JIM TOY: A minor, to use that term, called the Gay Hotline and said I can't get to meetings anytime, anywhere. Can you get me some literature? And here's what I will do, my parents drive me to my music lesson and drop me off at what was then called the Public Library. And could I meet you on a certain day at 4 o'clock out in the parking area?
• [00:16:24.14] And I said sure, what do you look like? And he told me. I went down, no show. Two more weeks he tried it, no show. Finally he called and said, I apologize, this isn't working.
• [00:16:37.48] Here is what you could do, I live on such and such a road off Geddes. It's the second one perhaps from Huron Parkway. If you will put whatever you have into a plastic bag, turn up that road, and about 100 yards up you'll see a culvert. If you would put it in the culvert on Tuesday, early afternoon, I will pick it up when I come home from school. I did and he did.
• [00:17:09.77] PETER: Wow.
• [00:17:10.49] JIM TOY: So we had to be creative.
• [00:17:11.93] PETER: Yeah.
• [00:17:13.69] JACKIE SIMPSON: And what's interesting to sort of make the connection, again, I do believe we have made lots of progress and are moving in our views and attitudes towards LGBT and queer-identified people. And yet, we have a program today that's called Guidance Perspective Support, or GPS for short, where we train students to-- and it's a program for students who want to meet with somebody similarly, like with Jim, to talk about sexual orientation or gender identity but aren't willing to come to the office.
• [00:17:57.10] So we do the same, they put in a request and then the two individuals decide where they're going to meet, library, Ann Arbor Public Library, Amer's for coffee, wherever that might be. So again, we've made progress, and yet we're still doing similar work for 40 years.
• [00:18:23.45] PETER: Have you ever had the experience of, let's say, a more creative approach to contacting someone who wanted your help?
• [00:18:35.59] JACKIE SIMPSON: I don't typically have the ability to provide anything more creative than what Jim can provide.
• [00:18:44.19] PETER: Well said.
• [00:18:51.98] JIM TOY: As a framework comment, every 10 years-- it may be Gallup-- some national agency does a poll concerning acceptance of transgender, bisexual, lesbian, gay, queer concerns. And every 10 years, slowly, there's an increase in the acceptance level. And to what degree that change in the national climate affects us here, I couldn't say in terms of cause and effect. Because I couldn't prove it, were I even to hazard a guess.
• [00:19:23.28] PETER: But it's a measurable statistic.
• [00:19:26.49] JIM TOY: That statistic is measurable.
• [00:19:29.15] PETER: What are some of the obstacles that the center has been challenged with and overcome? Or what are some things that it's still struggling with today?
• [00:19:39.41] JIM TOY: OK, let me do history for a second. We were hired, Cynthia Gair and I, when we opened the office. When the University, generously and at great risk created it, we were hired a quarter-time salaries. Quarter-time salaries obtained for six years. Through the intervention in large part of spiritual and religious leaders in the broader community, the university raised us to half-time salaries.
• [00:20:09.75] We were retained at that salary levels for 10 more years. That has to do with salaries. Our title, Human Sexuality Office, was misleading. People would call us up often and ask for information about abortion, and ask for information about sexually transmitted diseases.
• [00:20:36.88] Our credibility, because our staff people had no advanced degrees-- I didn't until I went to the School of Social Work-- our credibility was low. And my supervisor said if you want any credibility, you'd better go get an advanced degree. And I said you think so? He said yes, I think so. So then I went to the School of Social Work, and that may have added to the credibility of the office.
• [00:21:11.21] Another obstacle was the emergence of what we now call HIV/AIDS in 1982, 1983. And a large part of our energy then began to get devoted to addressing that particular concern. Another obstacle, in my experience, was the understandable, predictable, lack of transparency from the administration about decisions that affected us. And that, in my experience of course, still obtains today. It obtains in any large, complex organization. Well, we tried to deal with it as best we could.
• [00:21:49.58] JACKIE SIMPSON: I think a large piece of the obstacles and challenges that we're facing today probably are related to gender identity and gender non-conforming population where I think there's still a lot of education and a lack of understanding around that community. And I think there are literally things that need to be changed, updated, and done differently in order to really provide support to that community.
• [00:22:28.99] One of the things that had been worked on for a long time that we finally did get last year, but was the gender-neutral housing option. So we did get that, I don't feel like that's so much an obstacle anymore. But whether that's bathroom facilities, changing facilities.
• [00:22:49.92] PETER: And could you explain to us for a second what the housing policy is and what that changed?
• [00:22:56.84] JACKIE SIMPSON: Well, in essence, it's about allowing individuals to identify who they want to live with that isn't solely based on one's birth sex. So, in essence, the way in which you are placed in rooms doesn't relate to your genitalia. That's the reality of the situation.
• [00:23:23.50] PETER: We do have, at the University, a woman president, Mary Sue Coleman. Beyond that, in my experience, historical and present day, is that the University is largely operated by white, and I presume, heterosexual men. And how does that affect the office's relationship with students of color?
• [00:23:50.07] JACKIE SIMPSON: I mean, I think part of what my experience is-- so you probably also know that the office went through many name change iterations. So originally it was called Human Sexuality Office. Jim didn't tell the story, but they actually weren't allowed to use the term "gay" in 1971, ironically. So if you think about 40 years later, people wouldn't think about not using the term gay, but at the time they wouldn't allow it, it was too risque.
• [00:24:22.31] And then it was the Lesbian Advocate, Gay Male Advocate, Bisexuality was ultimately added, Transgender was ultimately added. And six years ago we did change the name again through several years of dialogue and discussion. Dan Savage, who's a national columnist, called us the process queens. So I felt like a process queen many times during that process.
• [00:24:51.86] But part of that largely is due and related to what Jim is saying in that there are many students of color that do not identify with the L, the G, the B, the T. They identify as same gender loving. They see the L, the G, the B, the T as white terms.
• [00:25:12.32] So as it relates to students of color, I mean, I think that's one of the ways that we tried to address that issue. I think it's also important to have staff in the office that LGBT students of color can identify with. So it's not the only thing, but certainly I do think what people see does matter.
• [00:25:37.97] And so I don't think the white straight male being in charge only affects the Spectrum Center. I think it penetrates how students of color might perceive the institution in general.
• [00:25:58.59] JIM TOY: Fortunately over the years, the university expanded our budget and we were able to add first staff people at what's called a temporary appointment, which meant without benefits. And we immediately, as I recall, added an African-American male person as perhaps the first employee of color in the office. Well I'm biracial, however in this instance that doesn't really count.
• [00:26:35.29] PETER: So you've said that a lot of students have really been the ones pushing what the Spectrum Center needs to do. Is that the case? Has the pressure to grow and change or just to open up the services you provide come a lot from the students?
• [00:26:57.99] JACKIE SIMPSON: It's really a both and answer, I think. I mean, the only way that we can do our work well is if we know what the needs of the students are. So if we pretend to know what other people need, then that's not good. So when you say do students determine what kind of services the Spectrum Center provide, yes. The short answer to that is yes.
• [00:27:28.18] The longer answer is it's not as if we get a sheet of demands that then the Spectrum Center responds to. You see what I'm saying? And that's more related to our theoretical framework, blah, blah, blah, related to student development, and self-authorship, and intercultural maturity, and those sorts of things.
• [00:27:49.62] PETER: Has the role of the Spectrum Center on campus or in student life changed over the years or expanded?
• [00:27:57.78] JACKIE SIMPSON: It's certainly expanded. I mean, we have four full-time staff members now. We have the ability to employ student staff. We have graduate students that we can pay, and some that are doing it as part of their field placement for social work. So, has it grown? Absolutely.
• [00:28:21.93] As it relates to the services that we provide, I think the one piece that we don't do any longer is counseling. But we still do advocacy, we still do education, we still do support. And we have a term that we identify as outreach. And that speaks more to our involvement with community, our involvement locally, nationally, regionally.
• [00:28:51.09] JIM TOY: From the beginning, the agency then called Counseling Services was our ally. And they are now called Counseling and Psychological Services, our allies today. They had, when the office opened, no counselors on staff who openly identified as bisexual, lesbian or gay.
• [00:29:19.19] Ultimately, and I was on the search committee that recommended their hiring, the agency hired a lesbian counselor and a gay male counselor. And from that point on, we were told the counseling function that you've been fulfilling needs to pass to counseling services. And about the four staff people, they receive benefits.
• [00:29:49.98] JACKIE SIMPSON: All of them do.
• [00:29:51.09] JIM TOY: They all do now. In the early years the employees, as I said, were temporary and had no benefits. And at one point to obtain benefits for the then coordinator of the Speakers Bureau, students went to a Regents meeting and voiced their concern. And so it took quite a bit of advocacy to bring this particular change about.
• [00:30:24.33] JACKIE SIMPSON: It took quite a bit of advocacy when we ultimately got gender identity and gender expression into the nondiscrimination policy. And a lot of that was driven by students. And faculty and staff, but a lot of that was driven by students.
• [00:30:36.58] So when I was answering about students' role in change on campus, that has absolutely been fundamental all the way along. The framing of your question I thought was around their advocacy about the work that Spectrum Center does. So when I talk about their advocacy around institutional climate, they're very involved in that process.
• [00:31:06.02] JIM TOY: Let's look at the amendment of regental nondiscrimination by-laws so as to add to it's text sexual orientation. It took 21 years to bring that about simplistically, largely through the opposition to that change by a particular Regent.
• [00:31:29.87] And in those years, student groups engaged in disruption. I think at one point they went to the president's office and raised their concern about the opposition to this particular change. And that took 21 years, as I said. And it took at least 10 more to bring about the addition of gender identity and gender expression to the by-law.
• [00:31:56.42] The university was way down the list of major institutions of higher learning in this country to add sexual orientation to its protective by-law, and then later to add gender identity and expression to the by-law. What occasioned that time that was so difficult for us, I do not know, and I probably will never know.
• [00:32:22.70] PETER: Does the counseling and psychological services have any trends, or intersects, or gender non-conformist staff?
• [00:32:36.60] JACKIE SIMPSON: I'm not aware of anybody that identifies as transgender or intersex. I am certainly, in regards to gender non-conforming, that might be a question-- I'm not sure about that either, so I would have to have conversations with individuals. What I do know is that I do believe that they are committed.
• [00:33:10.38] Actually, as we speak today, two of their counselors in addition to our staff member are at the WPATH Conference which is around transgender health and the Southern Comfort Conference, which is the largest transgender conference in the country in Atlanta. To make sure that there's training, and that there's education, and that they have staff that have the ability to counsel students who might be wanting to talk about, or struggling with gender identity, gender expression.
• [00:33:44.24] The good news is that we have been working on this for several years and they will begin to write letters for individuals. And what that means is that when a transgender individual is interested in starting hormones or begin a transition process-- and not everybody who identifies as transgender, gender non-conforming wants to do that. But if somebody does, there are these standards called Benjamin Standards.
• [00:34:18.10] And you have to fulfill a lot of different requirements, and one of those is that you get counseling for a number of sessions a number of times. And then that counselor writes a letter that says you're OK to move forward to initiate a hormone process, hormone therapy. Our counseling and psychological services are beginning to offer that services this year.
• [00:34:40.58] ANDREW: Wow.
• [00:34:42.83] JACKIE SIMPSON: So we're happy about that.
• [00:34:44.69] PETER: Another broad question. What goes into making a university campus a welcoming and positive place for people of all orientations?
• [00:34:54.24] JACKIE SIMPSON: That could be a whole podcast in and of itself, right? But I believe that there have to be policies in place that let people know that we appreciate, encourage, and want individuals on this campus. I think there has to be administration and faculty and staff that are visible and out.
• [00:35:23.42] I think there has to be financial resources that are given to this segment of the population to also encourage and indicate that we want you here. So we're inviting you to come. Whether that's through health benefits, whether that's through research grants that are supported to do LGBT work, whether it's academic majors. There just have to be visible things out there that are showing support and encouragement for people to be here.
• [00:36:04.59] JIM TOY: And we're fortunate that the Michigan Daily has been supportive of us from the beginning. And so forever to use that term, they have published editorials of support, they've coverage events in a positive way, and have served to raise our visibility. And without the Michigan Daily I don't know where we would be.
• [00:36:29.14] JACKIE SIMPSON: You can have sexual orientation and gender identity expression in your nondiscrimination policy. But I think language is also a very important piece of how appreciation and interest in LGBTQ individuals is truly meant. So when we're talking about diversity generally, are LGBTQ people included in that?
• [00:36:55.97] Faculty in the classroom who call people by the name they want to be called by. And sometimes for transgender individuals, they might be going through a name process, but their records might not be officially changed. And so on the list I might be registered as Jackie Simpson, but I want to be called Jack. And if the faculty member keeps calling me Jackie even though I repeatedly say my name is Jack, it's those kinds of things.
• [00:37:27.49] JIM TOY: The University, oh, it might be 10 years ago now, issued a multi-page, shiny publication on diversity. And the portion devoted to our concerns was perhaps 100 words, maybe a few more, in the multi-page publication. So I hope the next one will give us more space.
• [00:37:55.99] PETER: When you were talking about visibility, and how important visibility is to an open and welcoming space for people, it just reminded me of the Harvey Milk speech where he's exhorting people to come out, you have to come out, you must come out.
• [00:38:12.95] JACKIE SIMPSON: I think that's true. Certainly understand that everybody has their own process around that, and has a lot of different reasons for deciding why or why not. I mean, some students don't come out and choose not to come out until they've graduated from the University of Michigan, because if they come out their parents won't pay for their education. So they actually are strategizing around that. But we do need people to come out.
• [00:38:41.72] JIM TOY: Another element, I think, of helping make the university campus a welcoming, positive place for us, has to do with safety. And in this instance, physical safety. In the early years, the Gay Liberation Front and the office attempted to, I guess the jargon word is dialogue, with the city police about our concerns. We couldn't even set up a meeting.
• [00:39:12.89] And then when I became a staff member of what is now called the Office of Institutional Equity, I began providing training to the officers in campus safety and security about these concerns. And then [? Theregone ?] hired to head up the city's police force Chief Dan Oates. And he invited me to come in and train the city officers, police officers.
• [00:39:48.84] And if we were to survey students now, Jackie, I wonder what they would say about how they feel about the level of protection and consequent safety here. How would they rate it? I don't have a clue.
• [00:40:03.84] JACKIE SIMPSON: You know, we did some analysis through that with Michael Woodford who's a faculty member in the School of Social Work, because we collaborated with him on a sort of climate analysis around these particular issues. So I think, again, probably today the percentage is probably higher, perceived higher. But certainly I think students are still fearful. I mean, we had a bias incident a couple of weeks ago where somebody was hit for being gay. And so perhaps less frequently, but still exists.
• [00:40:58.39] PETER: And it can even happen to the student body president.
• [00:41:01.05] JACKIE SIMPSON: Yes, it can. So as a prime example of that, it got national news.
• [00:41:08.77] JIM TOY: I continue to hear well, I feel relatively safe, let's say, on central campus.
• [00:41:14.43] JACKIE SIMPSON: Right.
• [00:41:15.09] JIM TOY: If I'm around a fraternity house, I don't feel so comfortable. Or if I'm at an athletic event, I don't feel so comfortable. I feel at higher risk of assault, or at least of oral harassment. And for example, the climate at home ice hockey games has been for years unpleasant for us because there are shouts and chants of anti-queer sentiment. And they've continued for a long time and we're attempting to get that climate improved.
• [00:41:59.72] PETER: Jackie you have been the director for six years now.
• [00:42:03.31] JACKIE SIMPSON: I have.
• [00:42:04.52] PETER: So you've had the opportunity to see students come in as Freshman and go through their whole university career and graduate. What's that like?
• [00:42:15.15] JACKIE SIMPSON: It's probably one of the most awesome experiences. Students come to us at very different levels. We have students that come into the Spectrum Center as a first-year student, like Chris Armstrong, who was out when he came and immediately set his feet-- what can I do? How can I get involved? And was just ready to make change.
• [00:42:41.85] And that kind of capacity, you know, you see students grow into what does it means to be gay? What does it mean to be a leader? What does it mean to be a gay leader? What does it mean to be a leader who's gay? Those are a lot of things I think that college students struggle with if they're coming out to us in that context.
• [00:43:01.67] But we still get students that are part of our coming out support group as a first-year student who are just questioning their sexual orientation or gender identity. Sometimes those individuals, they start there and then by the time they graduate, they are the co-chair of the LGBT Commission. So you see this accountability, the confidence grow.
• [00:43:27.79] And then we do see some that try, but for whatever reason, wherever they are in their life just aren't ready to come out. And we support them. It's saddens me, I mean, that does sadden me. More so in the sense that it reminds me that there's still work to do, although it does keep me employed. But I'd rather not be employed, to be honest, as it relates to this issue. And if I was employed around things related to the issue, I just, it was was just one celebration after another.
• [00:44:07.41] JIM TOY: In terms of working with students who don't yet feel able to come out after their time here, to what degree you're aware of demographically? I presume you see more white students than students of color, because that's the way the university's constituted. Among those people who don't feel able to come out, are there perhaps more students of color than white?
• [00:44:33.46] JACKIE SIMPSON: Given the demographic, if you look at percentages of that particular demographic, I would say the percentage is pretty equitable. Students of color struggle differently with coming out because of the multiple identities and needing to negotiate on this campus both their race and their sexual orientation or gender identity. So I do think that they are presented with different kinds of challenges based on their race, yes.
• [00:45:04.40] JIM TOY: I went to a forum of queer students of color a couple of years ago in the Michigan League, and they voiced their concerns. And many of them felt under high-pressure from families, for example, which is not surprising. Families who were, at least the students who spoke, families who were reported to be members of conservative religious belief. And so that element has been in this situation, quote, forever.
• [00:45:46.44] Oh, I wanted also to say that gay male alums come back to campus, well as many alums do, wherever they may be, and have looked me up and said I just want to share with you. I want to thank you. Because you saved me from suicide. And that for me is the most profound witness to what we've been able to do.
• [00:46:21.17] ANDREW: For more information on the Spectrum Center and their 40th anniversary, visit spectrumcenter.umich.edu.
• [00:46:35.25] AMY: Music for this episode was "You Are Not Like the Rest" by Mark Boulle, which you can find on the AADL catalog by going to AADL.org/magnitude.
• [00:46:49.40] SPEAKER 1: AADL talks to Jackie Simpson and James Toy has been a production of the Ann Arbor District Library.