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Legacies Project Oral History: Jacqueline Heubel

When: 2020

Jacqueline Heubel was born in 1930 in Fond du Lac Wisconsin in the midst of the Great Depression. When her father regained his job on the railroad, her family moved to Eagle Grove, Iowa. She attended Iowa State Teacher's College and the University of Minnesota School of Dental Hygiene. After a few years working as a dental hygienist, she returned to teaching. Huebel taught in the Pontiac School District during the Civil Rights Era, and recalls the effects of integration on teachers and students.

Jacqueline Heubel was interviewed as part of an internship at Applied Safety and Ergonomics in Ann Arbor in 2008 as part of the Legacies Project.

Transcript

  • [00:00:09.20] JARED FRANTZ: --last name?
  • [00:00:10.18] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Heubel.
  • [00:00:10.57] JARED FRANTZ: Heubel, OK. This is Jared Frantz interviewing Jacqueline Heubel on the 15th of July, 2008. Please say and spell your name.
  • [00:00:21.55] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Jacqueline Heubel. J-A-C, Q-U-E, L-I-N-E. Heubel, H-E-U, B-E-L.
  • [00:00:32.08] JARED FRANTZ: What is your birth date, including the year?
  • [00:00:35.26] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: July 18, 1930.
  • [00:00:39.25] JARED FRANTZ: How would you describe your race or ethnicity?
  • [00:00:42.49] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: White.
  • [00:00:44.20] JARED FRANTZ: What is your religious affiliation, if any?
  • [00:00:47.08] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: None.
  • [00:00:48.88] JARED FRANTZ: What is the highest level of formal education that you have completed?
  • [00:00:53.95] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Educational specialist.
  • [00:00:56.05] JARED FRANTZ: Did you attend any additional school beyond what you completed?
  • [00:01:01.28] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: No.
  • [00:01:03.21] JARED FRANTZ: What is your marital status?
  • [00:01:05.16] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Married.
  • [00:01:06.51] JARED FRANTZ: How many children do you have?
  • [00:01:08.08] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Two.
  • [00:01:09.09] JARED FRANTZ: How many siblings do you have?
  • [00:01:12.80] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: One living and one dead.
  • [00:01:16.85] JARED FRANTZ: What would you consider your primary occupation to have been?
  • [00:01:21.11] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: A teacher.
  • [00:01:23.78] JARED FRANTZ: At what age did you retire?
  • [00:01:26.54] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: 61.
  • [00:01:29.04] JARED FRANTZ: OK. All right. And part 1. I'd like to now ask you some more detailed questions about your life, in terms of your childhood. So when you're born up until when you completed all your years of school.
  • [00:01:45.05] Where did you grow up, and what are the strongest memories of that place?
  • [00:01:50.75] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, I was born in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. And we lived in Fond du Lac until I was 10. And then we moved to Iowa, and I lived in Iowa through high school.
  • [00:02:11.99] My strongest memories in Wisconsin was what a wonderful time I had. My-- this was Depression. My father was out of a job, and he built a whole playground equip-- piece of playground equipment with swings, and turning poles, and trapezes, and so forth, and a playhouse. And so we had a great time in the neighborhood.
  • [00:02:46.36] In Iowa, Iowa was-- we lived in a small town. And I think I was a little different than most of the people. I remember in fifth grade, a boy kissed me because he said I was so different.
  • [00:03:12.12] [LAUGHTER]
  • [00:03:16.10] JARED FRANTZ: How did your family come to live in Wisconsin, and why did you move to Iowa?
  • [00:03:21.95] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, my father came-- this is kind of an interesting story. My father came to Wisconsin during the railroad strike of '22 when he and some friends-- he was very active in the union, and they blew up the roundhouse. And a federal marshal suggested that he get out of town.
  • [00:03:45.83] And so he came up to Wisconsin, where he met my mother. And they married at Fond du Lac. And that was where I was born.
  • [00:03:56.84] JARED FRANTZ: And what brought you to Iowa?
  • [00:03:59.76] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: My father went back on the railroad, and the job was in Eagle Grove.
  • [00:04:05.35] JARED FRANTZ: OK. What was your house like? I need a location.
  • [00:04:11.06] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Oh, well, the house in Fond du Lac was an interesting house, because it had been a house of ill repute. And it was very helpful to my family, because my mother took in roomers. And we had six women living in the house.
  • [00:04:35.03] We-- it was quite close to town and they could walk to their jobs. And I remember dusting their dressers with all of their paraphernalia that women have.
  • [00:04:49.17] The houses in Eagle Grove-- we lived in a variety of houses. The first one was a lovely house, where all of the floors came together in designs. An architect had built it. And there was no second floor, but there was a huge attic that went across the whole house.
  • [00:05:13.58] And so we had all kinds of things that we did up there. And then, we moved to a house-- let me think, the second house-- oh, I know. That house was sold. We were renting. And we moved to a rather modest house.
  • [00:05:40.93] And then my parents-- oh, and then we moved to 800 West Broadway, a large, two-story house. And then my parents bought a house just very close to that one. So I had-- I lived in a variety of houses in Iowa.
  • [00:06:01.22] JARED FRANTZ: How many people lived with you in your house when you were growing up? And what was their relationship to you?
  • [00:06:08.48] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, in Wisconsin, obviously, there were my sister and brother, and my parents, and six roomers. And later on, there was just the five of us.
  • [00:06:24.88] JARED FRANTZ: What was your family like then? How did you get along?
  • [00:06:29.59] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Oh, we had wonderful times. It was very different, because there was no TV. But we had radio. And in those days, people would gather around the radio. And we would always listen to certain programs.
  • [00:06:47.38] I remember when it came to 9:30 we had to go to bed. My mother played the piano, and we would gather around and sing. And we'd go on lots of picnics, and it was a wonderful life.
  • [00:07:04.63] I remember when my father was laid off one time, my mother was crying, and I couldn't understand why my mother was crying, because it was so nice having daddy home. So it was-- and in Iowa, well, both places, children had the run of things.
  • [00:07:24.97] You would think nothing of getting on your bike and going places. Your parents never worried about where you were. Nowadays, children do not have the freedom that children did when I was growing up.
  • [00:07:46.30] JARED FRANTZ: What sort of work did your father do? I know you mentioned the railroads.
  • [00:07:50.11] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: He worked on the railroad. He worked in what they call water supply, anything to do with water. He was a pipe fitter, then a welder.
  • [00:08:01.51] JARED FRANTZ: How about your mother? Did she do anything?
  • [00:08:03.70] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Not after she married.
  • [00:08:06.07] JARED FRANTZ: What did she do before then?
  • [00:08:07.21] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: She was a stenographer. [LAUGHS] She was the highest paid stenographer in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. She took great pride in that.
  • [00:08:15.71] JARED FRANTZ: Wow, that's impressive.
  • [00:08:16.85] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: But she only had an eighth-grade education. And then she went to business school. They allowed that then.
  • [00:08:28.69] JARED FRANTZ: How would you describe your relationship with other family members?
  • [00:08:34.96] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Fine. My sister was five years older than I am. And my brother was five years younger. And my sister had a lot of physical problems. And when my brother came along, he was kind of a doll. And we had this play house, and we'd put him in the buggy. And so it was a good relationship.
  • [00:09:07.51] JARED FRANTZ: What was a typical day like when you were growing up?
  • [00:09:11.83] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, how old? Depends on how old you're talking about.
  • [00:09:15.40] JARED FRANTZ: Anywhere from being born to when you completed school. So-- or you could tell me how they were different. Like, when I got to high school, my days got super crazy, or something.
  • [00:09:28.08] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, I don't remember much about elementary school in Wisconsin, except I was Goldilocks in a play, because I was the only one who had gold curls, long curls. So I was a natural for Goldilocks, I guess.
  • [00:09:49.59] And I-- oh, I took dancing lessons. And I got lice. And this was a great traumatic event. You put kerosene in the hair.
  • [00:10:03.14] And anyway, when I moved to Iowa and I was in the fifth grade, we were in a large classroom. It was a former high school. So we were in the study hall. And fifth and sixth grade were in the same room. And we went-- and we had separate-- we had classes in English, classes in mathematics and English, on the edges of this huge building, our room.
  • [00:10:33.72] And I took violin lessons and piano lessons, and played in the high-school orchestra when I was in the fifth grade, and had to have pumps that were an inch high. And my girlfriends all said I was ruining my feet [LAUGHS] by wearing these dress shoes. But it was great fun.
  • [00:11:11.49] JARED FRANTZ: Can you describe the chores or duties that you had during this time?
  • [00:11:17.51] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Oh, we always had a lot of duties, as you can well imagine. My mother kept a huge garden. And we canned. And on Saturday, it was my sister and I-- it was our job to clean the house. And I always read a book. [LAUGHS]
  • [00:11:42.45] And then, along about 4 o'clock in the afternoon, I got busy with what I had to do in terms of taking care of the house. My mother would-- my mother did the baking in the kitchen, and my sister and I did everything else.
  • [00:12:00.90] JARED FRANTZ: What were your favorite things to do for fun?
  • [00:12:05.76] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Oh, dear. We did a lot of things. When you're in a small town, you make all of your fun.
  • [00:12:20.48] We had a group that we met in people's garages and danced-- learned to dance. And one of the fellows there, his parents had a drugstore. And when we were at their house, we all got, I think they were called clowns in a Coke glass, ice cream, and chocolate sauce, and nuts, and-- quite wonderful.
  • [00:12:49.54] We did a-- I would go on a lot of picnics or-- in Iowa, it was very flat. We had a toboggan. And when it snowed, we'd pull the toboggan behind a car. And small town, nobody is going out in the snow, anyway. And so, you just made your own fun.
  • [00:13:15.94] JARED FRANTZ: Can you remember any fads or slang words that you used?
  • [00:13:23.04] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, jeans came in when I was young. And my mother would not allow me to wear jeans. And a neighbor whose, I guess, son came home from the service gave me a pair of jeans.
  • [00:13:44.65] And of course, we wore saddle shoes, and loafers, penny loafers. You'd put a penny in the loafers. And then, there were-- pea coats became very popular from the sailors that came home from the war.
  • [00:14:03.79] And we had-- skirts got very long. And we sometimes would wear our cardigan sweaters backward, so they buttoned down the back. I don't know why, but we did. And can't think of--
  • [00:14:29.32] JARED FRANTZ: If something was cool or neat, did you say, cool, or sweet, or awesome, or what was the adjective?
  • [00:14:40.05] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: No. I don't remember. I don't remember our language. When I was younger, [LAUGHS] I got to-- we made a tent one summer and we had a swearing party. And my mother found out, and I was grounded for two weeks.
  • [00:15:00.54] SPEAKER: A swearing party!
  • [00:15:01.53] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: A swearing party. [LAUGHS] But I don't remember any-- I giggled a lot. And I'll bet I must have driven I had Gildersleeve's giggle. And I must have driven my parents out of their minds with my giggling. But I don't remember anything else.
  • [00:15:29.66] JARED FRANTZ: All right. Were there any special days, events, or family traditions that you really enjoyed when you were growing up?
  • [00:15:40.24] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: [LAUGHS] I remember one story that my parents used to tell. One-- I think it was Labor Day or that we-- my father always had Labor Day off. And we went to a neighboring community for a parade.
  • [00:15:59.06] And my father had $0.30. And we each had an ice cream cone, and we came home with a nickel. So they were very impressed that they could do that. Well, all holidays were very important.
  • [00:16:20.71] And every summer I would go to the farm and stay. I had a cousin that was a year older than I. And I would spend a couple of weeks on the farm and had a wonderful time.
  • [00:16:36.96] And my uncle said to me one morning, he said I could come out to the barn, but I was not allowed to ask any more questions, because I was always asking questions. [LAUGHS] And he didn't want to answer any more.
  • [00:16:58.69] JARED FRANTZ: In thinking back across your childhood and school years, what important social or historical events were taking place at that time, and how did they personally affect you and your family?
  • [00:17:10.64] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, of course, the war. And I remember when V-- I don't remember. It was VE or V-J Day came. And I sewed on a kerchief the initials and velvet ribbon. So that was pretty important.
  • [00:17:36.23] I remember Roosevelt dying. And my sister was terribly upset because she didn't see how the country could continue without President Roosevelt. And so she was crying.
  • [00:17:58.49] And of course, Hiroshima came, but I'm not sure I really understood the ramifications of dropping the bomb. Can't think of anything else.
  • [00:18:18.56] JARED FRANTZ: All right. We're moving into the adulthood, work, marriage, and family life. So this is after school until either you or your husband retired.
  • [00:18:29.79] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:18:30.39] JARED FRANTZ: So after you finished school, where did you live?
  • [00:18:37.18] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: After I finished high school? I didn't really finish all my college work until I was elderly, practically. [LAUGHS] Not elderly, but-- so--
  • [00:18:51.74] JARED FRANTZ: Yeah, that's fine. Yeah.
  • [00:18:52.84] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: After I finished high school.
  • [00:18:54.05] JARED FRANTZ: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:18:54.68] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: OK. After I finished high school, I went to junior college at home. And I thought I was going to be a occupational therapist. And I went up and spent the summer in-- will that disturb you?
  • [00:19:20.77] SPEAKER: No, it's OK.
  • [00:19:21.47] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Went up and spent the summer at a mental hospital. I had gone-- well, that's another story. I decided that occupational therapy was not for me. I came back and then took school-- education.
  • [00:19:42.55] And at that point in Iowa, if you went two years to school, you could be an elementary school teacher. And I-- so, but I had to make up the previous year I hadn't taken, the courses that I needed. So I finished up that summer at Iowa State Teacher's College.
  • [00:20:01.69] But I wanted to have two more years, and I felt that I didn't want to start over into a new career. So I had worked for a dentist at home in high school. And so I thought I'd be a dental hygienist.
  • [00:20:21.73] And so University of Minnesota had a School of Dental Hygiene, and it also was the home of the Minneapolis Symphony. And I wanted to hear a live orchestra. I had been listening on the radio all these years.
  • [00:20:38.99] And so, I decided to go to the University of Minnesota and do dental hygiene. And that was where I met my husband.
  • [00:20:53.55] JARED FRANTZ: OK. Let's hear more about him. Where and when did you meet him, specifically?
  • [00:21:01.58] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: I had a friend who was directing a group of graduate students. And she was trying to make a student of me. I went to college to get a husband, and I knew from the get go [LAUGHS] that it was to be a husband, and it was kind of-- a college graduate, essentially.
  • [00:21:26.19] And so, she was trying to make a student of me. And so every night after dinner, we would go up to her offices. And at 10 o'clock, there would be a break, and the graduate students would come in and have coffee. And that is where I met my husband.
  • [00:21:47.72] JARED FRANTZ: What was it like when you guys were dating?
  • [00:21:52.37] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, we were both limited. He was a scholarship student. But he was a student assistant doing graduate work. And I remember, we went to the opera, as long as we both paid our own way.
  • [00:22:15.54] On the other hand, our first date-- our first date, we went down to downtown Minneapolis. We went to the Curtis Hotel and had martinis. And then, we went to an Italian restaurant for dinner. And then, I think we went to the movies.
  • [00:22:39.17] But we never did such elaborate now--
  • [00:22:40.99] SPEAKER: Yeah!
  • [00:22:41.69] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Such an elaborate date again. [LAUGHS] But we went back years later, and that Italian restaurant was still there. And the Curtis Hotel was still there.
  • [00:22:54.26] JARED FRANTZ: Tell me about your engagement and wedding.
  • [00:22:57.83] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, we had kind of a rocky affair. We dated that year in Minnesota, and then I graduated. That was my second year there, and I graduated and went to Iowa to work. And said goodbye.
  • [00:23:17.83] And I had a girlfriend in New York City, and he was from New York City. And I went to visit her, and I knew that I was not going to have a very happy time for a whole week under the circumstances that she was living in. And so I thought, who do I know in New York?
  • [00:23:40.23] And looked in the phone book, and there was one Heubel in the New York City phone book. And that turned out to be my husband's parents.
  • [00:23:49.89] SPEAKER: Oh.
  • [00:23:50.34] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: So I gave them a call. And so then, we met again. And this is almost three years after. And then, when he came West, stopped. And then, I went to visit him in the spring in Portland.
  • [00:24:13.86] And then, we were married in June.
  • [00:24:20.58] JARED FRANTZ: Tell me about your children and what life was like when they were young and living in the house.
  • [00:24:27.12] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, my son was born first. And we were living in an apartment down at Wayne. My husband was on the faculty at Wayne. And I had what was called "rooming in," where you have the baby with you, which was a wonderful experience.
  • [00:24:49.37] And we had-- we were all terribly excited and it was a lovely time. And then, we bought a house and had a second child, a little girl. I think it was the normal kind of thing.
  • [00:25:20.51] Later on, we discovered my son had-- but that wasn't until he was in college, that my son ran into depression, severe depression. But in their growing-up years, they really never gave me a-- gave us a moment's problem.
  • [00:25:49.75] JARED FRANTZ: Tell me about your working years as a teacher.
  • [00:25:54.14] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, I worked initially as a dental hygienist before my children were born. And then, the civil rights movement came along, and somehow or other, cleaning teeth didn't contribute much to society.
  • [00:26:17.39] And I was working with civil rights groups, and I decided to go back to school and get a degree in education, and work with-- I was-- did it initially in high school. But there are very few high-school secondary jobs, because they're mostly occupied by coaches. And-- which is probably why the state of the world is so bad these days.
  • [00:26:48.31] SPEAKER: [LAUGHS]
  • [00:26:49.17] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Anyway, so I switched to elementary. And at the time, my children were ready for school. Then I went back to work as a teacher.
  • [00:27:04.95] JARED FRANTZ: Now, you say that you were teaching during the civil rights movement? What was it like--
  • [00:27:09.86] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, I was--
  • [00:27:10.40] JARED FRANTZ: --with the atmosphere of the class? Was there any--
  • [00:27:12.89] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, I went to work-- I went to work to work with black children. And I taught in Pontiac during the-- I don't know what you know about Pontiac and integration-- the court case that they had to integrate the Pontiac schools.
  • [00:27:35.42] And what they did is, they matched a black school with a white school. And I was in a black school. And the teachers moved. They had first, second, third grade in one school, and fourth, fifth, and sixth in the other.
  • [00:27:49.94] And we had the bus burnings, but we had all federal marshals riding on the school buses. It was very exciting and very interesting.
  • [00:28:08.85] JARED FRANTZ: I bet. What was a typical day like?
  • [00:28:15.22] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: At school?
  • [00:28:16.28] JARED FRANTZ: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:28:18.55] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, the usual. Your kids came in, then you took lunch and did the housekeeping kinds of things. And eventually, I team taught. We had, in the school building I was in, we had a large room that opened up.
  • [00:28:45.44] And I met a person, another teacher that I liked working with. And so the next year, we went down and opened up that room, and it hadn't been used, and worked together. We put two third grades together.
  • [00:29:03.77] And she did the English, and the language arts, and that sort of thing. And I did science, social studies, and math. And we had a great time. It was very nice.
  • [00:29:17.84] JARED FRANTZ: What did your family enjoy doing together with your kids?
  • [00:29:23.93] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, we did a lot of bicycle riding. We did a lot of camping. When they was 14 and 16, we took them to Europe. Edward had a sabbatical in Spain. And we took cycles and started cycling from Luxembourg towards Spain.
  • [00:29:47.42] And my daughter and I cycled from-- to get ready for that, we cycled from Green Bay to Madison and back, had a wonderful time. It really cemented my relationship with her. She was able to fight off all the dogs and-- [LAUGHS] because I was afraid.
  • [00:30:13.65] And so we always had very interesting dinner conversations, as you can imagine. And whenever they would have guests for dinner, they said-- the kids said that that was the only place they ever went to where people would get up and check on something in an encyclopedia at the table.
  • [00:30:39.77] SPEAKER: [LAUGHS]
  • [00:30:43.25] JARED FRANTZ: What were your personal favorite things to do for fun?
  • [00:30:49.25] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, I liked to go to the theater. I liked to read, concerts, travel. We've done a lot of traveling.
  • [00:31:02.22] JARED FRANTZ: Do you remember any fads or slang at this time? Any funny words your kids used?
  • [00:31:11.31] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: No. I don't.
  • [00:31:13.58] JARED FRANTZ: How did the clothes change from when you were a kid to when you had kids?
  • [00:31:18.39] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, the kids-- my kids came through the long-hair period. In my son's high-school graduation, he's got long hair. I was never terribly concerned about fads.
  • [00:31:37.96] Except once, when my daughter came home and said, she had to have a midriff. And she said, I'm going to wear a midriff to school tomorrow. She was in middle school. And I said I didn't understand this.
  • [00:31:56.49] And she said, well, the principal got on the intercom and said he did not want to see one more navel. And so I said, well, sorry, sweetie, but in this family, you are not going to go to school [LAUGHS] in a midriff. So that was the one fad I kind of remember.
  • [00:32:21.38] I don't remember ever having a problem with her, or him-- either of them-- dressing or doing anything.
  • [00:32:32.65] JARED FRANTZ: Can you remember special days, events, or traditions that you enjoyed during your adult life?
  • [00:32:40.62] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, we always had-- at Thanksgiving time, we had-- usually had it with another family, and often the same family, sometimes more. But we would always have special things that-- in addition to the major meal, we would have programs, or readings, or reading the Mayflower Compact, and doing that kind of thing.
  • [00:33:15.66] We had a former student of my husband's who had children older and about the same age as ours. And they lived in Canada. We would frequently get together with them. And they were cyclists, also.
  • [00:33:33.51] And-- trying to think. You'll have to give me some hints. I can't recall.
  • [00:33:51.03] JARED FRANTZ: When thinking back across your adult life, what important social and historical events were taking place, and how did they affect you personally?
  • [00:34:02.21] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, certainly the civil rights movement was very important. And my husband was a political scientist. So naturally, we followed politics very closely, and participated in elections. And I worked for various candidates.
  • [00:34:27.65] And I've mentioned the bomb. And we were in Spain at the time that Ford was president. And he came through, and that was very exciting. Our apartment was on his route, and we were not able to use the elevator.
  • [00:34:52.56] And my daughter had some friends in, and they made a sign-- a welcoming sign-- and stood out on the street for him to see as he went by. And in Spain, one of the exciting things was the film Jesus Christ Superstar. And this was at the time Franco was still alive, and caused great problems for Spain.
  • [00:35:28.72] And my husband was doing all kinds of interviewing. And then we went off to see the film. And either behind us or ahead of us were a group of nuns. They-- the Church decided that it was all right. And they were very careful about the way they did the subtitles.
  • [00:35:55.44] But they didn't-- they weren't able to change the words in the songs. So they remained the same.
  • [00:36:08.92] JARED FRANTZ: Oh, OK. I'll ask more so we don't waste too much tape. OK, this session is beginning with your retirement until now. Can you tell me any moves you made from being retired until Glacier Hills?
  • [00:36:27.75] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: We lived in Bloomfield when we retired. And then, my husband had a stroke-- a major stroke. And I had a hip replaced. [LAUGHS] And we decided that it was time to get out of our house.
  • [00:36:53.19] We had a swimming pool, and he normally took care of the swimming pool. And I mechanized it as much as I could, but I just couldn't do it anymore. I didn't want to do it anymore.
  • [00:37:07.00] And then, the lady who helped me with the yard retired, so I thought, it's time to go. Besides, my daughter had conveniently-- finally-- provided us with a grandchild. I was almost 70 years old before I had a grandchild. Or I was 70 when I had a grandchild.
  • [00:37:28.50] And so, she had two houses, one with her first husband and one with her second husband. And so, we moved into one of her houses on a lake, and had experiences with having a pontoon boat, and all of that. And so we were there I think four or five years.
  • [00:38:00.14] In the meantime, she divorced her second husband and moved into the house that we were living in. And we had decided that we would, in any case, want to go to a retirement community. So we were going to move into Henry Ford Village, but this place had been built, so we came here.
  • [00:38:31.54] JARED FRANTZ: Do you plan to live here for the rest of your life?
  • [00:38:34.21] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: No. [LAUGHS] Not that I don't like it. I like it very much. But if anything would happen to my husband, I would move closer to my daughter.
  • [00:38:50.73] JARED FRANTZ: All right.
  • [00:38:54.65] SPEAKER: All right.
  • [00:39:06.43] JARED FRANTZ: How has life changed for you since your children have left home?
  • [00:39:15.00] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, we've discovered that some of the mess was ours, not theirs. [LAUGHS] I think retirement has changed much more, because when you're working, you're very, very much into a routine.
  • [00:39:39.57] And once you retire, you can have that second cup of coffee. You can spend the morning reading The Times and doing the crossword puzzle. And so, it's very nice. I certainly enjoy retirement.
  • [00:39:57.60] JARED FRANTZ: What is a typical day like here at Glacier Hills?
  • [00:40:01.83] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, we get up very early. My husband starts at 3:30 AM. [LAUGHS]
  • [00:40:09.45] JARED FRANTZ: What?
  • [00:40:09.87] SPEAKER: What do you mean "what"? [LAUGHS]
  • [00:40:11.18] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: He gets up, and he washes his hands, and he comes back. He has glaucoma, and he starts putting his drops in. And it takes him a half an hour to get his drops in. So he gets up then, about four.
  • [00:40:24.38] And I have set up coffee and his breakfast the night before. And he has his breakfast, and I usually do not get up until 5:00 or 6:00. I vary a little bit. [LAUGHS]
  • [00:40:38.12] SPEAKER: [LAUGHS]
  • [00:40:38.94] And we get up, and I have a cup of coffee. And then, at 7:15, we come over here to the exercise center and we exercise. I walk a mile and do some weight stuff, and he does the new step. And then he goes home, and then I go and have breakfast.
  • [00:41:03.36] And breakfast is a wonderful time here. We have lots of nice conversation. And the breakfasts aren't so great. But that's all right. And then I go home, and I might shop. We have lots of medical appointments.
  • [00:41:28.08] I limit the cooking as much as I can. I find that I do more-- go to more grocery stores here. For some reason or another, I can't get it all together. I go to one store for bread, another store for fresh vegetables and stuff, and another store for the paper goods, and soaps, and things. So that I do do a lot more driving to stores than I have ever done.
  • [00:42:02.13] On Friday evenings, late afternoon, we have wine and cheese either here, or we have a little group that meets, and we have wine and cheese. On Friday nights, I'm on the committee that arranges for the Friday night programs.
  • [00:42:23.65] I'm on the committee for issues, and we have people come in for that. On Saturday night, they have a film. We usually go to the film.
  • [00:42:43.11] I think that's about it. It's-- we're busy all the time. We're not-- like today, this morning I cleaned my-- cleaned our little villa. And so.
  • [00:42:57.71] JARED FRANTZ: Cool. What does your family enjoy doing together currently? How do you guys get together? Or do you?
  • [00:43:08.05] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Yes, we-- my daughter and granddaughter were just here for a week visiting. And she took an art class. And my daughter and I went shopping. [LAUGHS] And we sometimes go down to Indiana and stay with them for some days.
  • [00:43:33.01] We're going back to Stratford this year. We had stopped going because it was so difficult. And so, we like to go to Stratford. We don't do any traveling to speak of anymore.
  • [00:43:50.45] When we first retired, we made five trips to Europe. And then, after that, we started cruising. We've pretty much-- it's really difficult. My husband has had three strokes, and so it's pretty difficult.
  • [00:44:12.11] JARED FRANTZ: What are your personal favorite things to do for fun?
  • [00:44:16.28] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Do a lot of reading. I have a neighbor that I play duets with on the piano. Hm. I go to meetings. [LAUGHS]
  • [00:44:37.59] JARED FRANTZ: Are there any slang terms here at Glacier Hills or unique social customs?
  • [00:44:43.13] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: [LAUGHS] Well, I have to watch my swearing. [LAUGHS] And so, I have invented a swear word that's called Faulkner. And if I want to say something I'm not supposed to say, I say Faulkner. [LAUGHS]
  • [00:45:04.17] Swear words or slang words-- no, we don't. I guess we just don't use much-- we were never encouraged. [LAUGHS] As my mother would say, we didn't send you to college to learn to say that. [LAUGHS] So-- and my husband never uses slang.
  • [00:45:40.61] JARED FRANTZ: Are there any special days, events, or family traditions that you especially enjoy now in your life?
  • [00:45:47.60] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, of course, we enjoy Christmas, particularly with the little one. I made a Santa suit for my husband, and he became Santa. Thanksgiving is always a big day. Can't think of anything else.
  • [00:46:18.30] JARED FRANTZ: OK. When thinking back on your later life, what important social or historical events were taking place, and how did they personally affect you?
  • [00:46:32.28] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, the things that I have mentioned, the bombs, the end of the war, or the war itself, because we had-- we knew people who were killed.
  • [00:46:42.33] JARED FRANTZ: From retirement--
  • [00:46:43.61] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Oh, from retirement.
  • [00:46:44.66] JARED FRANTZ: Yeah.
  • [00:46:44.88] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Oh. Things that have happened since retirement. Well, my daughter's two divorces, remarried again. My son's illness.
  • [00:47:07.23] The terrible presidency we're living under right now, and what's happening to the country, of course, is a terrible concern for us. I feel sorry for you young people who are going to have to be [GASPS] making up for all of this mess.
  • [00:47:29.65] We're very concerned about the environment, and what's happening in terms of the global warming and oil problem. We don't seem to be doing anything much about it.
  • [00:47:54.19] I'm concerned about this-- what do you call the roads and the structures? There's a term for it. I can't think of it. We are-- the superstructure? Is that it? That we're not taking care of things like we should.
  • [00:48:18.31] JARED FRANTZ: The naturally-important resources, or--
  • [00:48:21.74] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, the--
  • [00:48:22.24] JARED FRANTZ: --the infrastructure?
  • [00:48:22.91] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Infrastructure.
  • [00:48:23.27] JARED FRANTZ: OK.
  • [00:48:23.98] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: The infrastructure. And things are deteriorating. And people are hysterical about taxes. I do not understand that. I think people ought to pay taxes. So-- and it should be income taxes, not property taxes. Property has nothing to do with--
  • [00:48:48.83] JARED FRANTZ: Anything?
  • [00:48:50.48] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: --with how much-- it's your income that ought to be taxed. It's a fair way.
  • [00:48:59.42] JARED FRANTZ: Yeah. When thinking back across your entire life, what is the most important social or historical event that has impacted you the greatest?
  • [00:49:12.49] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: My goodness. The most important historical event that's impacted me.
  • [00:49:24.70] I would guess the civil rights movement, because it has brought major change. And then, we had the period of the flower children, and drugs. And as a result of that, it's not all negative.
  • [00:49:59.68] Because I think it's interesting to watch this election, because the younger people are much more tolerant, much less concerned about homosexuals, and drugs. And on the other hand, I don't feel that the woman's movement has done all of it, all that it should.
  • [00:50:36.63] There is still a lot of discrimination against women. And I think personally, one of the reasons I supported Hillary was, I wanted to see a woman in the White House. [LAUGHS] And I don't think that young people saw that.
  • [00:51:01.95] I mean, for instance, my son didn't at all. He wanted Obama from the get go. And I think that there is another divide that I don't think the younger generation is aware of-- abortions.
  • [00:51:22.32] I mean, I think that a lot of people-- a lot of young people are not aware of the number of illegal abortions that took place, and how we cannot go back to that situation again. And so, I think we've made good advances in civil rights. But we've lost we've lost some progression along the way.
  • [00:51:59.37] JARED FRANTZ: Thinking back across your entire life, what are you most proud of?
  • [00:52:03.85] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: [LAUGHS] Having gotten through it. [LAUGHS]
  • [00:52:06.51] JARED FRANTZ: [LAUGHS]
  • [00:52:10.89] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, I'm very happy in my marriage. And that's a pig in a poke. You never can tell. And I'm very pleased that we have lived together happily for 53 years, and we have raised two children, one successfully, one--
  • [00:52:41.92] JARED FRANTZ: One not?
  • [00:52:45.03] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: I think that-- and we've, of course, financially done well. So that ensures that we're not-- our retirement is not a problem. We're not going to have to go back and greet at Walmart or something.
  • [00:53:09.65] JARED FRANTZ: You answered some of the civil rights changes. But what else have you seen change from the time you were our age until now?
  • [00:53:21.12] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, certainly clothing styles. Hm. Give me some hints. [LAUGHS]
  • [00:53:37.33] JARED FRANTZ: Boy.
  • [00:53:41.28] SPEAKER: A lot of people talk about the general attitude towards life and the pace of life.
  • [00:53:48.78] JARED FRANTZ: Yeah. One of the big ones was pace, money, sex, presidents and stuff, the internet and the computers.
  • [00:54:07.84] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Oh, that's right. How could I forget the computer? [LAUGHS] Oh, my. We became part of the computer age a long time ago. And now it's passed me by. [LAUGHS] It's just-- yeah. That's true.
  • [00:54:23.33] One of the things I find in getting older is that at some point you don't really want to learn a new technique or a new-- I mean, I got a new cell phone from my husband. I've got to learn how to use that.
  • [00:54:43.93] And every time you get a new computer, we-- I have an Ed Specialist degree in computers. And I'm totally out of date. I mean, I used to program. I programmed Bach's Toccata and Fugue on the computer.
  • [00:55:03.76] I still use the computer daily. And I, of course, do email. But I put all of our finances on the computer. But-- and I Google. But I don't-- I don't begin to do what you can do on a computer.
  • [00:55:22.79] And with the cell phones and technology, it's really-- I mean, you take a look at a telephone. I mean, my grandmother had the kind of telephone that you rang, and you were on a line of a lot of people. And we have all different styles of phone.
  • [00:55:48.00] And you just-- you go to a museum and you look at all the phones. And look at how the styles have changed. It's unbelievable.
  • [00:56:08.93] I don't think my attitudes towards sex have changed. I think I've always been rather open about sex. And I'm not disturbed about sex. I'm disturbed about AIDS. I think that that's a terrible thing.
  • [00:56:41.24] I remember in talking to my daughter, I told her in high school that I didn't want her engaging in sex, simply because I didn't want her to have a reputation. But once she got to college, there wasn't anything I was going to do, anyway.
  • [00:57:04.75] I mean, when you're not within sight, you're not going to be able to have any control. On the other hand, when her boyfriend said that they were talking about having sex, he said, go talk to your mother and find out what to do. [LAUGHS]
  • [00:57:26.72] So I'm not-- I do believe strongly in abortion, having worked with a lot of children who were unwanted.
  • [00:57:37.85] JARED FRANTZ: For or against abortion?
  • [00:57:39.89] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: I am for abortion.
  • [00:57:41.08] JARED FRANTZ: Oh.
  • [00:57:41.72] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: I want children to be wanted. And when children are not wanted, you have tremendous problems, and they have tremendous problems. And you have no idea how many needy children there are.
  • [00:58:05.03] So from that standpoint, I'm not afraid of-- I don't really care. [LAUGHS] You want to go to bed with somebody, that's fine. I don't care about that.
  • [00:58:19.30] Now, money, we-- money is no problem because we, coming through the depression, we were-- let me tell you a funny story. When I got married, my mother said to me, before you go to bed with Edward, you have him sign over his insurance.
  • [00:58:39.25] [LAUGHTER]
  • [00:58:42.42] Now, that's all right. But we were careful. And we saved so that, when we retired, we are very comfortably off. We are among the blessed of the earth. And we never had big incomes. A college professor isn't going to make a big income.
  • [00:59:04.07] But we were careful. So money is no problem. And I think that-- and my-- it's not a problem. My daughter is careful. We are putting-- and we're putting money aside for my granddaughter's college. And we have put money aside for a cousin of my husband's who is now in college, too, because her family did not handle money.
  • [00:59:35.49] And so, we decided we would put her through school. So money, I don't really have anything to say about. I think that when your group retires, there's going to maybe be a problem. Because I think you people are used to-- you're used to a standard of living that may not be so easy to maintain. But who knows?
  • [01:00:09.83] What was the other thing? Sex, money, that you mentioned.
  • [01:00:14.87] SPEAKER: Pace of life.
  • [01:00:15.70] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Oh, pace of life. I don't know. I'm pretty busy around here. There seems to be a lot. Now, we don't do so much. But I have a garden out back, and I have a garden around the villa.
  • [01:00:35.08] I'm still cooking, which I'm tired of doing. But I'm still doing it. So, I don't know. I've slowed down, but all in all, it's fine.
  • [01:00:58.73] JARED FRANTZ: What advice would you give to our generation, based on the experiences that you have had?
  • [01:01:05.59] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Be flexible. Study hard. Take advantage of every opportunity that you have. Don't be too set in your ways. Things change. [LAUGHS]
  • [01:01:29.04] Enjoy yourself, but not at the expense of others. Care for one another. I think we're not as sensitive as we might be. I know somebody was saying that Mr. Rogers has created a generation of kids who think that everything that they do is all right.
  • [01:01:56.51] [LAUGHS] And so, perhaps we need to be concerned for others.
  • [01:02:08.84] JARED FRANTZ: OK. Well that's--
  • [01:02:11.23] [PAPER FLAPPING]
  • [01:02:12.69] --done with that note.
  • [01:02:13.66] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: OK.
  • [01:02:16.12] JARED FRANTZ: So we'd like to hear more about the civil rights movement. Specifically, it was going on while you were teaching. And some of the other people we've talked to said that, when I was young, I really didn't understand why this was happening, and why things were separated like this.
  • [01:02:38.10] Did you have any experiences like that, where kids were confused, or there was-- there might have been tension? Or how did that really go?
  • [01:02:45.63] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, let me go back to when I was in Iowa. We had what I didn't realize we had, but we did, I learned later, what they called the "sundowner law," that any black person that came into the community had to be out by sundown.
  • [01:03:06.25] The train went through, and sometimes there would be-- although I never saw one. And-- but every year for brotherhood week, we would have to write a report on what brotherhood means to me.
  • [01:03:23.79] And then, when I-- the summer I worked in a mental hospital, I got called-- because I was tall. And there was what they called the "violent ward." And that ward had its own-- as a summer replacement, I worked on all different wards, because when other people were off.
  • [01:03:56.95] But the violent ward had its own. And one of the patients broke the arm of one of the workers. And so, I got assigned up there. And I was afraid.
  • [01:04:14.69] And I got up there, and the person in charge of that ward was no bigger than a minute. And I thought, boy! [LAUGHS] This is going to be something. And it turned out to be one of the best-run wards in the whole hospital.
  • [01:04:33.20] And it was bath time. And we, the attendants, bathed the patients, instead of having the patients bathe the patients. And I was told to bathe that lady. And it was a big black lady.
  • [01:04:52.29] And I remember kneeling down and saying, well, Jacqueline, if you're prejudiced, it's going to come out now.
  • [01:04:58.84] [LAUGHTER]
  • [01:04:59.71] And so I bathed her, and it was perfectly all right. And then I was-- after I graduated from college, my parents took me to New Orleans for a trip. And I had been in the Eastern Star-- the Masonic-- I don't know if the Masonic bodies. But I've been in the Eastern Star.
  • [01:05:23.81] And we visited the Masonic temple down in New Orleans. And here was white bathrooms and colored bathrooms, and white sinks, colored sinks. And I-- this is an organization devoted to brotherhood. And I think, this is not brotherhood.
  • [01:05:48.12] And so, I came home and did what they called demitted-- withdrew from the organization. And so, I've always been, I guess, concerned with the little guy, and rights, and so forth.
  • [01:06:07.91] And so then, when I was working in civil rights, I was doing housing. You know how black people couldn't buy houses. And so, we would form teams, and go and visit houses as a white couple.
  • [01:06:36.68] And then, a black couple would go right after, and see if there was any difference in the way they were treated. And so, we were working on getting open housing, that this is not-- you cannot discriminate.
  • [01:06:53.03] And so from then, I went into teaching. And in Pontiac, they had black schools and white schools, and it was, never the twain shall meet. And of course, the black schools were not given the supplies, and so forth, of the white schools.
  • [01:07:25.79] But let's see. The second year-- second or third year after I started teaching, the court case came, and we were integrated. And it was interesting to see. I thought long and hard at, how am I going to successfully integrate these kids?
  • [01:07:54.25] And so, I set them up with a black girl and a white girl, and a black boy and a white boy. I didn't put-- didn't mixed boys with girls. Because that doesn't-- that was not fair. You can't-- [LAUGHS] they don't like that.
  • [01:08:14.89] And when not somebody, they-- we had meetings before. And they, somebody, said, oh, I was not-- that's not fair. I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't force this integration. And I said, well, this is what we're supposed to be doing. And they're not going to integrate unless they get acquainted. And if they're not going to get-- you know.
  • [01:08:33.76] So anyway, that worked very well. I remember, in the spring, needing one girl's-- a black girl's telephone number. And I said, does anybody have her phone number? And yeah, one of the little white girls did.
  • [01:08:53.60] So the most trouble you had with it was the parents. And I remembered calling one parent-- one husband and wife in. And I said, your son is having a rough time.
  • [01:09:17.41] And I said, regardless of your attitude at home, please do not talk about this in front of him, because it's affecting the way he is performing in school. And your attitudes are your own. But where they affect your child, that's where I come in.
  • [01:09:44.68] And they listened. And he started performing. And before that, he wouldn't do anything, and all these papers were stuck in his desk, and he didn't-- what a mess.
  • [01:10:03.29] But people were-- and the-- [LAUGHS] it was interesting to see the reactions we had. We had a black teacher who came in from a white school, like I was a white teacher at a black school. And she felt that she had come down in the world, and was not a happy camper.
  • [01:10:38.17] And-- happy camper. There. I have got us the slang term. [LAUGHS]
  • [01:10:47.86] But she was a demon. Ooh, was she a demon. Can I tell you a story about her?
  • [01:10:53.88] SPEAKER: Yeah.
  • [01:10:54.26] JARED FRANTZ: Sure.
  • [01:10:54.63] SPEAKER: Go ahead.
  • [01:10:55.96] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: She had two dogs who were her children. And she taught them colors. Now, dogs are color blind. But she claimed she taught them colors. I don't know. They had linens from Mosley's.
  • [01:11:10.39] You probably never heard of Mosley's. But in downtown Detroit, there was a store that sold linens called Mosley's. The most elegant linens you ever saw. Sheets, pillowcases, tablecloths-- gorgeous. Her dogs had linens from Mosley.
  • [01:11:29.61] [LAUGHS] Well, anyway, she had the most incredible discipline in her room that you ever saw. And I didn't know how she did it. And anyway, one day there was an assembly. And one of the parents came by and saw her puppet stage move.
  • [01:11:55.96] And she went in and checked, and here was a kid underneath the puppet stage. And when kids misbehaved in her room, she put them inside this box. [LAUGHS]
  • [01:12:09.29] SPEAKER: [GASPS]
  • [01:12:12.04] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: And-- I know. One of the other parents told me that her child went back to bedwetting after having been in her room.
  • [01:12:17.86] SPEAKER: Oh, my goodness!
  • [01:12:19.14] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: I mean, she just had those kids scared to death! [LAUGHS] They wouldn't move for anything. So anyway, what else can I tell you about civil rights? Gosh.
  • [01:12:34.70] Oh, I took a teacher and her daughter home to Green Bay with me one spring. And she was black. And she needed a break. And so I wrote my mother, and I said, would you please check your apartment house, and see if they would have any problem with having a black guest?
  • [01:13:02.72] Now, Green Bay does have a few blacks in their-- football players from the Packers team. And the woman said, no, it'd be perfectly all right. Because I didn't want to have her embarrassed or anything.
  • [01:13:14.84] SPEAKER: Mm-hmm.
  • [01:13:15.99] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: And so, we spent the week. And I drove. But we were coming around by way of Chicago.
  • [01:13:29.99] And as we approached Chicago, Amy, who was eight at the time, she saw a black person, finally, and she sort of relaxed. I could just see that it had been difficult for her to be all week with nothing but white people. And so, anyhow.
  • [01:13:57.23] JARED FRANTZ: In terms of seeing civil rights progress across a spectrum, where do you see right now? Is this-- like, back then, were there goals? Did a leader say, by this time I want for this status to be? And how would you gauge where we are right now?
  • [01:14:25.70] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Well, I think it'll be interesting to see what happens in the election, and should Obama win, what effect that will have. On the other hand, I'm a little nervous about whether or not somebody is going to take a shot at him.
  • [01:14:53.16] I'm-- the south, and there are some die-hard-- and I think some of this is coming out now. And if you look at the voter preferences, they're almost now neck-in-neck. So I think that-- I don't know what's going to happen.
  • [01:15:26.94] JARED FRANTZ: So back then, was it even imaginable that there would be a African-American nominee for president? I mean, was that--
  • [01:15:34.88] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: I don't think it ever came up. Just like-- a woman.
  • [01:15:39.95] JARED FRANTZ: Mm-hmm.
  • [01:15:42.62] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: At that point, you see, the candidates were nominated in the so-called smoke-filled rooms. And then, you have the-- what was it? The Mississippi delegation, that there were blacks in it, and they weren't going to seat them. There was that big fight.
  • [01:16:05.75] When we were in Argentina, I should tell you this, Little Rock happened-- when they integrated the Little Rock schools. And my husband spoke at the Binational Center on civil rights in the United States. And the cultural attache from the embassy came, and was just-- before he spoke, and was just beside himself.
  • [01:16:35.20] He said, there's going to be rioting, throwing chairs. The communists are going to be there. And my husband just ignored him, and gave a very academic kind of talk. These are the problems, these are the things that have been done, these are the things that need to be done. It was a very academic kind of talk.
  • [01:17:01.95] And so then, the next day, the cultural attache called him in and said, we're going to send you on a tour. So he went and toured four cities in Argentina, and spoke on race relations in the United States, and the law faculties on constitutional law, which is his field. So.
  • [01:17:35.53] JARED FRANTZ: OK. We'll have to change tapes in a couple minutes. Just one really quick question. When did you go to Europe as a-- you went as a child, right?
  • [01:17:48.25] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: When did I what?
  • [01:17:49.06] JARED FRANTZ: Go to Europe? Spain, your dad's sabbatical.
  • [01:17:52.53] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: No, my husband's sabbatical.
  • [01:17:53.61] JARED FRANTZ: Your husband's. Oh, that's right. When was that?
  • [01:17:56.35] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: That was '74, '75.
  • [01:17:58.42] JARED FRANTZ: Oh, OK. All right. Did you witness any, like, destruction or whatever? Like, was Europe still rebuilding after World War II?
  • [01:18:10.45] JACQUELINE HEUBEL: Oh, no. It was '74, you see. That's 25 years. Europe rebuilt under the Marshall Plan very rapidly. And we went to England in-- gosh. Three-- Alan was three. Would be seventy-- no. Six-- when was she born? 60. '63.
  • [01:18:44.78] '63 where we were in London. And people with that point were breaking up their shelters, their bomb shelters. Some people still have them in their backyards. No. Things were very-- the one thing in Spain that we noticed that Spain was very, very rigid.
  • [01:19:16.62] You were not allowed-- for instance, there were no Playboy magazines were allowed in the country. And a lot of frustrated, particularly frustrated men. And then-- and there would be riots, and particularly at the University.
  • [01:19:43.79] And the water cannon would come out. And they would shoot the water to break up riots. And the police on horses and things. It was a very difficult time, because Franco was dying, and there was still a lot of hard feelings from the Civil War in Spain.
  • [01:20:12.41] But even-- you didn't see rubble from the Civil War in Spain.
  • [01:20:17.18] JARED FRANTZ: OK.
  • [01:20:18.08] SPEAKER: We're out of tape, yeah.
  • [01:20:18.98] JARED FRANTZ: I thing we're--