AACHM Oral History: Jennifer and Hershal Brown

Mon, 09/12/2022 - 10:41am

When: September 9, 2022

Hershal Brown was born in 1946. He lived off and on with his parents in Gary, Indiana, but he was raised primarily by his grandparents in Ann Arbor. He remembers having many role models at Bethel AME Church. After graduating from Ann Arbor High School, Brown served in the military in Spain. He worked at Ford Motor Company in pre-prototype coordination for 31 years. He also worked and volunteered for the Ann Arbor Public Schools and the Washtenaw County Sheriff’s department. He married his longtime sweetheart Jennifer Benton in 1968 and they have two daughters, Charisse and Heather. 

View historical materials for Hershal Brown.

Jennifer Brown was born in 1948 in Ann Arbor to Charles and Laurel Benton. She recalls learning to fish with her father and attending Jones School. Her mother encouraged her to take advanced classes in high school. Brown worked in banking and bank management for the first half of her career while her children were young. Later in life she got her master’s degree in social work from the University of Michigan and became a social worker. She has been married to her husband Hershal Brown for 53 years. They have two daughters, Charisse and Heather, and three grandchildren.

View historical materials for Jennifer Brown.

Transcript

• [00:00:15] JOETTA MIAL: [MUSIC] Thank you all for joining us today and helping out to add to our archive for the African American Museum Library. Now, we've got two of you here today. I'm going to ask some of the questions. Just one of you will answer. Then you'll be able to join in and have a conversation as we go along. We'll just play back here, like we're chatting with each other, okay?
• [00:00:52] JENNIFER BROWN: Okay.
• [00:00:52] JOETTA MIAL: I'll start with Hershal. Please say and spell your name.
• [00:00:58] HERSHAL BROWN: Hershal H-E-R-S-H-A-L, Brown B-R-O-W-N.
• [00:01:05] JOETTA MIAL: What is your date of birth?
• [00:01:08] HERSHAL BROWN: My date of birth is 1/4/46.
• [00:01:12] JOETTA MIAL: How would you describe your ethnic background?
• [00:01:17] HERSHAL BROWN: My ethnic background, a 100 percent African American.
• [00:01:25] JOETTA MIAL: What is your religion?
• [00:01:27] HERSHAL BROWN: My religion is Christian.
• [00:01:35] JOETTA MIAL: What is the highest level of formal education you have completed?
• [00:01:40] HERSHAL BROWN: A masters in organizational leadership.
• [00:01:47] JOETTA MIAL: Did you attend any additional school or formal career training beyond that?
• [00:01:54] HERSHAL BROWN: Only for certificates.
• [00:01:57] JOETTA MIAL: I know it says what is your marital status, I know you're married, so we'll go to the next question.
• [00:02:07] HERSHAL BROWN: We've been married for 53 years.
• [00:02:10] JOETTA MIAL: Wow. How many children do you have?
• [00:02:14] HERSHAL BROWN: We have two daughters.
• [00:02:17] JOETTA MIAL: How many siblings do you have?
• [00:02:20] HERSHAL BROWN: None. My wife has none.
• [00:02:26] JOETTA MIAL: What was your primary occupation?
• [00:02:30] HERSHAL BROWN: My primary occupation was Ford Motor Company, pre-prototype coordination.
• [00:02:47] JOETTA MIAL: You want to explain what that is? [LAUGHTER]
• [00:02:51] HERSHAL BROWN: All new vehicles that were built and tested by Ford Motor Company. I've worked five years ahead of each program.
• [00:03:07] JOETTA MIAL: At what age did you retire?
• [00:03:11] HERSHAL BROWN: I retired at 53 years old.
• [00:03:15] JOETTA MIAL: Wow. that was young.
• [00:03:18] HERSHAL BROWN: Yes it was.
• [00:03:20] JOETTA MIAL: Jennifer, please say and spell your name.
• [00:03:24] JENNIFER BROWN: Jennifer Brown. That's J-E-N-N-I-F-E-R and then B-R-O-W-N.
• [00:03:33] JOETTA MIAL: What is your date of birth?
• [00:03:36] JENNIFER BROWN: January 27th, 1948.
• [00:03:41] JOETTA MIAL: How would you describe your ethnic background?
• [00:03:44] JENNIFER BROWN: African American.
• [00:03:48] JOETTA MIAL: What is your religion?
• [00:03:51] JENNIFER BROWN: I'm a Christian.
• [00:03:54] JOETTA MIAL: What is the highest level of formal education you have completed?
• [00:03:58] JENNIFER BROWN: The highest is a masters degree in social work from the University of Michigan.
• [00:04:06] JOETTA MIAL: Did you do any additional formal training?
• [00:04:13] JENNIFER BROWN: Beyond that, no.
• [00:04:16] JOETTA MIAL: I know you're married, and that you have two daughters.
• [00:04:25] JENNIFER BROWN: Correct.
• [00:04:27] JOETTA MIAL: Hershal said you didn't have any siblings, so you all both were only children.
• [00:04:33] JENNIFER BROWN: Only children.
• [00:04:36] JOETTA MIAL: What was your primary occupation?
• [00:04:41] JENNIFER BROWN: Well, I'm going to divide it in half. Half of my career was in bank management and then my second career was as a social worker in crisis intervention.
• [00:05:04] JOETTA MIAL: What age did you retire?
• [00:05:10] JENNIFER BROWN: I retired at age 65.
• [00:05:18] JOETTA MIAL: We're going on to Part 2 where it says memories of your childhood and youth and I'll have to take you all separate a little bit for awhile here. This time I'll start with Jennifer. What was your family like when you were a child?
• [00:05:40] JENNIFER BROWN: Very secure, regimented. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents who live south of Ypsilanti on a large property, had chickens, farming and with my parents, just played outside with the kids in the neighborhood. Sometimes had to go to work with them when they had part-time employment. Actually, most of my childhood was really spent at the church. Almost every thing we did as kids, we did it at the church. Lots of church activities and playing with the neighborhood kids.
• [00:06:52] JOETTA MIAL: Were you born here in Ann Arbor?
• [00:06:55] JENNIFER BROWN: Yes, I was.
• [00:07:01] JOETTA MIAL: What is maybe one of your earliest memories of you?
• [00:07:12] JENNIFER BROWN: Gosh. I just had this written down. One of my favorite memories was doing a one person play each year on Christmas Eve for my parents. As an only child I had to learn how to be creative. I did a lot of things by myself. I played board games by myself, I even had to have a fictitious opponents. But one of the things [NOISE] that I did every year was have a Christmas play. I played all major parts of the Christmas story. I played Mary, I played Joseph, I had a doll for baby Jesus, and my parents sat there watch, then they clapped. I did this for number of years until I got too old to do that. But yeah, I was thinking about that earlier and thinking that that was just a very special memory and then it became a tradition for a few years.
• [00:08:53] JOETTA MIAL: You've mentioned some of them, were there any special days, events, or family tradition show that play was one of them.
• [00:09:04] JENNIFER BROWN: The play was one of them. One of the things we always did is we went to my grandmother's. I want to say probably Thanksgiving and Christmas. She always had a crowd of people at her house. It was a big dinner and men and women dressed up in those days. Just even to go to someone's house for dinner, all the men had shirts and tie on and suits and we were all dressed up. Usually my mother made me a new dress or something like that for Christmas. It was very special. The house was decorated, my grandmother always had a Christmas tree outside of the house and a Christmas tree on the inside of the house and greenery draping the doorways and things like that. I have pictures of us sitting around the dining room table. I will note this that I have my grandmother's dining room furniture in my house to this day. It carries a lot of memories from a child sitting at her dining room table at her house and now I sit at her dining room table in my house. Those holidays, cookouts in the summer, always lots of people and good food and just lots of fun times.
• [00:11:07] JOETTA MIAL: Wow. I think I'll switch over to Hershal right now and ask him the same question. What was your family like when you were a child?
• [00:11:18] HERSHAL BROWN: The family structure that I grew up under was a broken home. My mother and father separated a number of times and during those separations, I came back down over being born in Ann Arbor from Gary, Indiana, I came back and stayed with my grandmother. My grandmother had extended family. We lived right across the street from Bethel AME Church on the old Plum Street, John A. Woods Drive. I used to play out in the yard with the chickens. We had chickens, we had dogs. My grandfather took them hunting and I went with him. Then some years I would go back with my parents and then eventually they divorced and I ended up staying permanently here in Ann Arbor.
• [00:12:22] JOETTA MIAL: What work did your parents do?
• [00:12:26] HERSHAL BROWN: My father worked in a steel mill. He was actually a supervisor in the steel mill. My mother worked in Chicago as a clerk for Montgomery Wards Distribution Center.
• [00:12:45] JOETTA MIAL: What is one of your earliest memories in your childhood?
• [00:12:51] HERSHAL BROWN: The earliest memory was, as I said before, playing in the backyard of, there on Plum Street, we had a large section of property. There's about four or five homes built on Plum Street. Now, we went all the way down the hill from the church, my grandparents property there. The church was my jungle area, it was all weeds and trees and everything. I played over there pocket full of rocks and do just about everything. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:13:34] JOETTA MIAL: Were there any special days, events, or family traditions you remember from your childhood?
• [00:13:41] HERSHAL BROWN: Just as Jennifer said, it was always a family gatherings during the holidays. The dress code was shirt and tie, formal. The main thing was my grandfather was a hunter. He went hunting, let's put it that way. [LAUGHTER] He would get up in the mornings and say, "What do you want for the dinner?" We're doing traditional turkey, but something that he felt it needed to be on the table additional.
• [00:14:23] JOETTA MIAL: Okay.
• [00:14:26] JENNIFER BROWN: My father was a fisherman. His relaxation time was coming home from work, getting his fishing gear and go on somewhere on the Huron River. He had lots of fishing spots and he took me and I ended up having my own fishing poles and tackle box. He taught me how to scale and gut fish and so I spent a lot of time doing that as well.
• [00:15:09] HERSHAL BROWN: [OVERLAPPING] Just a short addendum, Dhu Varren at Pontiac Trail back in the day, that was the city dump, Dhu Varren. My grandfather and I used to go up there like on Saturday mornings and just rummaged through the stuff. I have a chair that my grandfather and I got. He said this is your chair. I have it still to this day.
• [00:15:47] JOETTA MIAL: Oh, wow. What was that you had Jennifer from your parents or grandparents, a table?
• [00:15:57] JENNIFER BROWN: I have my grandmother's complete dining room set. It was from the Duncan Phyfe era where all the furniture had curved bottoms to it. Not sure if you know what I mean, but I have her dining room table, I have her China cabinet, and her buffet. I have all three pieces. Not to mention the fact that I have most of her silver serving pieces and glassware dishes and silverware, forks and knives and all of that. I have mostly all of it. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:16:55] JOETTA MIAL: Wow. For memories, you have these items in your home and you had a fisherman and a hunter.
• [00:17:11] JOETTA MIAL: Now, maybe you all can just pipe up each for this next questions. I'll start with Hershal this time but you can chime in, Jennifer. Did you play any sports or join any other activities outside of school, Hershal?
• [00:17:33] HERSHAL BROWN: I did. As children always do try to join in with group activities, but I wasn't a superstar or didn't play varsity or anything like that. I was a little fella, and then when I got older is when I became a big fellow.
• [00:18:00] JOETTA MIAL: How about you, Jennifer?
• [00:18:02] JENNIFER BROWN: No, I didn't participate in sports. I think at that time, that era, there wasn't a lot of sports, at least at school, available for females, available for us. Then being African American also caused, at least for me, not to feel like I could participate in after school sports. So when I got to high school, I worked part-time every day at the University Hospital. My father would pick me up and a couple of more people who worked at the hospital, so I worked instead of playing sports.
• [00:18:58] JOETTA MIAL: Okay. What about your school experience is different from school as you know it now. Who wants to start?
• [00:19:22] HERSHAL BROWN: I was almost friendly with everyone. I sang in the school men's choir, I sang in the school's a capella choir, I was in theater productions. Didn't have the leading part or even the wording part. I was like a fill in and I was happy with that. We had a very close group of students that we all attended church together, and so that was our little group makeup, and our clique if you could call it that. That's how we survived with our friendships and our gatherings.
• [00:20:12] JOETTA MIAL: You weren't involved in sports, but it sounds like you were all in this musical and other activities in school?
• [00:20:19] HERSHAL BROWN: Yes, I did some other things. I was limited because I had a knee injury and so it carried on for years.
• [00:20:40] JOETTA MIAL: Go ahead, Jennifer.
• [00:20:44] JENNIFER BROWN: I don't really remember participating in any extra curricular activities, I think part of it was the time in history where I just felt like being African American, I wasn't going to have a chance. I don't know about other people, but it seemed as though most of us knew not to try to join or get voted in for Student Council, and being on the cheerleading team. I didn't even think that would be a possibility. Some things we just accepted. Our life where we felt appreciated and where we get opportunities to do things was within our youth groups at church. Now, as I've talked to and watch what's going on in the schools and even with their grandchildren, they have not had the same experience, they've had more opportunities. We didn't have the opportunities and we didn't try. If you tried, you generally did not get accepted, so we just didn't try. Our life was at the church, that's where we felt affirmed and appreciated.
• [00:22:41] HERSHAL BROWN: Secure.
• [00:22:42] JENNIFER BROWN: Secure. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:22:48] JOETTA MIAL: Did your family have any special sayings or expressions during this time that you can remember?
• [00:22:56] JENNIFER BROWN: My mother had, she had a bunch of them. [LAUGHTER] One of the things she would say is, "I'm going to have to handle that person with a long-handled spoon." Now, you know growing up, I didn't understand a lot of these things and I didn't know what she meant by that, and sometimes did not ask my mother what she meant by these things. But I know now it means to be respectful but to be careful with certain people. Another one goes something, that "If you lie in your bed or make your bed, you have to sleep in it." I may not have that exactly right. But now I know that you make bad decisions, you got to live with it. I can't remember all of them, but she had a lot of them and she did spend time talking to me about human behavior and things you needed to watch out for, and being from the South and having lived through a long period of segregation, she was also very watchful of things going on in our community and how I was treated and warning me to be careful about what people said or how people treated me.
• [00:25:07] JOETTA MIAL: Hershal.
• [00:25:10] HERSHAL BROWN: I had a favorite uncle on my mother's side that whenever anything didn't go his way he would just say, "Tally Ho." [LAUGHTER] And the way that he said was that was the end of the conversation. Jennifer and I both laugh about it and if we agree, we just say "Tally Ho" and it's going to work its own way out.
• [00:25:42] JENNIFER BROWN: Or not. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:25:48] HERSHAL BROWN: Or not. Whenever he said "Tally Ho," we knew that he didn't care. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:25:55] JOETTA MIAL: Were there any changes in your family life during your school years that impacted you in some way?
• [00:26:07] JENNIFER BROWN: Well, my family life was, as I said earlier, very stable. [NOISE] But I remember when my grandfather died and then my grandmother passed away. Actually, all the grandparents passed away. I think that left a big void in my life. My grandmother who lived in Mississippi would come to visit a couple of times a year and she would bring things from Mississippi for us, gifts. My grandmother that lived here the one that I have her dining room said. She had a big impact on my life. She was very sure of herself. She demanded respect, and she taught me how to do the same. She was very involved in my life both grandmother and grandfather. When they were no longer here, again, that was just like a huge void. I've missed all of them ever since.
• [00:27:46] JOETTA MIAL: Hershal?
• [00:27:47] HERSHAL BROWN: Coming from a broken family. My grandmother was very influential in my life. She told me that I was a perfect baby, that [LAUGHTER] I could fit any clothes because my size was always the perfect size. Jennifer, to this day, she cracks up. My grandmother instilled a lot of self-pride within me. "Don't worry about your hair because you have the best hair that pretty baby needs." [LAUGHTER] "Don't worry about this, don't worry about that." I grew up that way, not thinking that I had any severe problems and it really helped because being in a broken situation and back and forth with parents in unstable conditions and then back with grandparents. I learned a lot and I understood a lot. I didn't disrespect my parents least bit, but I would share ideas with them. Sometimes, being a boy if you do something wrong, you're going to get a spanking. My response was okay. [LAUGHTER] They didn't understand that very well because my grandmother could spank me and then next day is going to be the same as today. You keep moving. That's where I grew up. I grew up happy and joyful about just life itself.
• [00:29:52] JOETTA MIAL: When thinking back on your school years, what important social or historical events were taking place at the time, and how did they personally affect you and your family?
• [00:30:09] JENNIFER BROWN: Well, there was racial tension throughout the country. I remember sitting and watching the Detroit riots on television. It seemed it was someplace far away, but it was really just almost down the street in Detroit. I've watched all of that unfolding and I watched how my parents participated with the NAACP here in Ann Arbor and all that. They did all the picketing and fighting for equal rights and fair housing and just so many things. All of that was unfolding as I was growing up. I appreciate what my parents did and I appreciate all of the people who mostly are all gone now. But who were the forerunners to making so many things possible here in Ann Arbor that we might not have had, had they not fought hard for those rights and so that impacted me growing up.
• [00:32:21] JOETTA MIAL: What about your perspective, Hershal?
• [00:32:25] HERSHAL BROWN: Well, my perspective was being in the church and there were quite a number of men in the church that I looked up to. I remember being told by Rosemarion Blake that you are a little man and you're going to grow up. I picked, I was able to glean good things from all the men that we had in church from our pastor to our deacons, our trustees, choir members. Just about everyone that had a good-quality there at church. I just got picked up and really respected them. They carried me a long way because when you have that father image missing or are doing some of the wrong things that you try to avoid. It was instilled in me a good man concept. I really appreciated the men that were in my life from church.
• [00:33:52] JOETTA MIAL: You all lived during the era of segregation and you've commented a little bit on this. Can you speak about that? Was your school segregated? Was the elementary school near you? Was the high school, I know that it wasn't for Black students in the same area. How did you get to school? Who were your teachers? Were there restaurants or eating places for Blacks where you live? How we're Black visitors accommodated, if you know? Now that's a lot so you can answer.
• [00:34:35] JENNIFER BROWN: I'll go first. You may have to pardon me on some of the points, but I went to Jones Elementary School. I would say predominantly Black, but there were white students there. In fact, I will note this that despite the time in which we grew up, there were I had some white friends at Jones School who always came to my birthday parties. I have the pictures to prove that [LAUGHTER] and I just saw one of them at our class reunion last month and we were so happy to see one another. Jones School was mixed, predominantly Black. Now of course, it's Community High School they closed as an elementary school, I believe because of the fact that it was predominantly Black. I walked to school because it was just a hop skip and a jump from my house. I could see the school from my house so that's how close it was. When I moved on to junior high school, which was Slauson. We walked to school. I've never ridden a school bus. When I moved on to high school, you had to get there the best way you could do. I'm not really quite sure now, what qualified you to ride the bus, but certainly it was none of us that lived on Fourth Ave, Fifth Ave, Beakes, Summit. None of us qualified to ride the bus and again, I don't know why. Could you remind me of some points that I may have missed?
• [00:37:02] JOETTA MIAL: Well, you talked about your elementary and high school, walked to school. Who were your teachers?
• [00:37:10] JENNIFER BROWN: At Jones School, there were all white teachers. Some are like better than others. [NOISE] I do know this [NOISE] that my mother despite the time in which we lived, she would not put up with anything that I came home and said that had been taught that day in school if she thought there was some tinge of racism. And what was said, I know she went right up to the school. I know what is now Pioneer High School, but then was the only high school, Ann Arbor High. My mother didn't back down either. There were maybe two or three Black teachers. Everybody else was white. She then back down from anything if she thought my counselors were directing me in a path that she didn't think she wanted me to go. My father was the quieter of the two, so I refer to my mother a lot because she was the one who took care of business. [LAUGHTER] If I came home with a class schedule that included classes that she didn't think amounted to anything, she went right to the high school and had all that changed. If I had a teacher that she didn't think she wanted me to have, she took care of that too. It didn't matter if the teacher was Black or white. I just wanted to point that out. I remember, particularly that I came home with a class schedule one time that included study hall as a class, and they had signed me up for Spanish. I wish I had stopped with Spanish, but anyway, she said, "You're not going to spend the hour of your class day [NOISE] was study hall. You can study at home. I want you to take something that amounted to something." I never got to take any business classes because she made sure that I was on the college prep track. While we were preparing for this Hershal asked me if I had taken typing or anything. No my mother, she wasn't having that. You're going to take college prep courses, no study hall during the day and she didn't want me to take Spanish. She for some reason thought that's what everybody takes as common. So she had them sign me up for French. [LAUGHTER] She was a go-getter and she spoke her mind and she didn't back down.
• [00:40:58] JENNIFER BROWN: Oh, wow. That was helpful. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:41:04] JOETTA MIAL: Okay, Hershal, how about you?
• [00:41:06] HERSHAL BROWN: I had a very unique experience with education coming out. I started at Northside School here in Ann Arbor because I was with my grandparents. When I moved, I think it must have been the 4th or 5th grade back to Gary, Indiana. It was a cultural shock because we lived in a district where Gary Roosevelt was from kindergarten all the way up to 12th grade. It had standards that gave me a background that was so rich in culture. The principal, the name escapes me right now, but he wore white shirts that were so white. He was just outstanding. He was a very articulate doctor that ran the school. We had to walk on the same sides going one way and going the other way so it wasn't just that student confusion trying to get to class. His standards were extremely high and just this past year, I met some people that went there the same time that I went and we shared that and Jennifer was all about how we spoke of Gary Roosevelt. It was an all-Black school. All the teachers who were Black. They challenged you not to be a C student but to be the best A, B student that you could be with the courses that were challenging. When I finally moved back to Ann Arbor, that culture had really impacted me so until I knew that whatever class I went into that I would excel. It was a challenge. I took Latin and it was a challenge for the teacher to see that I was a young man the way I was. The teacher always called my name last, even though it was Brown. She made a comment one day that the reason she called me that was I was the only Hershal in the class and I was able to stand up and let her know that that was offensive. Back in those days, we didn't challenge our teachers, but at Gary Roosevelt, if you had something that you learned to articulate that was enlightening to people, that's what you did. So needless to say, I never got a grade higher than the C in her class. That made me stronger to say, okay, well, I got to study a little bit harder. Doing that, I guess they say, "Well, you're an arrogant person," and I said, "No, I'm just a confident young person within myself." Those two things really helped and I had two or three gentlemen that saw that in me and they became very influential in my life. One was Dr. Roy Hudson and the other one was your name sake Dr. Harry Mial. I was really happy with those people being in my life.
• [00:45:25] JOETTA MIAL: Wow. Which junior high and high school did you go to?
• [00:45:36] HERSHAL BROWN: Junior high, I was at Gary Roosevelt and then.
• [00:45:42] JOETTA MIAL: That's in Indiana?
• [00:45:44] HERSHAL BROWN: Indiana, yes. Then I came back to Ann Arbor and I went to Slauson and then the district changed, I went to Forsythe, and then Ann Arbor High was the only public high school in the city.
• [00:46:03] JOETTA MIAL: Now, do either of you remember how about restaurants or eating places for Blacks, was that segregated?
• [00:46:14] JENNIFER BROWN: The only eating place that I experience was my grandmother's kitchen. [LAUGHTER] We didn't eat out at that time because most places they accommodated you, but it wasn't that secure accommodation of knowing that your food was prepared properly, and so we shied away from there. We went to the fast food places, McDonald's and A&W, but as for going out eating, we were pretty controlled. As teenagers, we went to Bimbo's Pizza place and had fun there, but as for a family, we didn't venture out.
• [00:47:05] JOETTA MIAL: Jennifer, how about you?
• [00:47:09] JENNIFER BROWN: Actually, really the same experience, not too much eating out in Ann Arbor. Again, there was, I think the first, well, Blimpy Burger, we could go there. There was a drive-in restaurant right on the outskirts of Ypsilanti. I think that might have been the first fast food place in the community. But I don't really remember going to any of the finer dining restaurants. I think when we graduated from high school, there was a restaurant on Stadium where we went for prom, but not a lot of eating out, not at the finer dining places. We just didn't do a lot of that. I don't know what other people did, but we mostly ate at home.
• [00:48:27] JOETTA MIAL: Go ahead.
• [00:48:29] JENNIFER BROWN: I just wanted to add that, if we want to barbecue, we went to Inkster together.
• [00:48:39] JOETTA MIAL: Do you know if Black people felt welcome in the restaurants?
• [00:48:44] JENNIFER BROWN: I think that's part of it. I don't think there was that kind of welcoming spirit and I don't think we took the chance. It's hard to venture out sometimes, even now [LAUGHTER] because you don't know. I mean, in certain places, you don't know how people will receive you, but then especially, I think there was just the general spirit of, we probably are not going to be welcome, so we're not going to take the chance.
• [00:49:30] HERSHAL BROWN: The other thing, there was economic stronghold, working within your budget to go out for dinner. The budget sometimes presented a special kind of meat and especially like Thanksgiving and during those times, but generally, our staple was beans and cornbread and greens.
• [00:50:05] JENNIFER BROWN: I tell you what, and this may not be in this category that you're talking about right now but, I probably need to say this is that, [NOISE] when it came to eating, many of the people that my parents knew work where they were offered food that was leftover from things going on where they were. We had great food, it didn't come out, we didn't get it sitting down at a restaurant but [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:50:49] HERSHAL BROWN: Came out the back door.
• [00:50:49] JENNIFER BROWN: My parents were friends with people that offered them food to take. I'll say this too that there was a great spirit of sharing even a family here in Ann Arbor that had, I don't know how many 8, 9, 10 kids, you would think that if they were offered food from where they were, they would need all of that food for their own family, but I clearly remember a spirit of sharing and if you had extra and your boss let you take this from where you work, it was shared among the community. We have the best food and so it didn't come from sitting down at a restaurant, but we got it in other ways.
• [00:51:56] JOETTA MIAL: Wow.
• [00:52:00] JOETTA MIAL: Well, listen, we're going on to Part 3; adulthood, marriage and family fight. Now, these set of questions covers a fairly long period of time of your life, from the time you completed your education, entered the labor force, started a family until all your children left home and you and your spouse retired. We might be talking about a stretch time spanning as much as four decades. Hershal, I'll start time with you. After you finished high school, where did you live? Did you remain there, or did you move around throughout your adult life? If you did, what were the reasons for those moves?
• [00:53:01] HERSHAL BROWN: After I finished high school, I knew financially that I couldn't go to college. A lot of times emphasis on studying, pass the class, having the top grades, psychologically, it just left my mind. My objective was my mother had moved in with my grandmother and I after she divorced my father. I knew financially that I would be a burden if I said I wanted to go to college. Dr. Roy Hudson wanted me to go to Livingstone where he went to school, but Livingstone was in North Carolina and at the time, I felt that North Carolina was not a place for a Northern boy like me, that some people felt was into itself. Wasn't for me to go to so I opted for the military. I went to the military for four years. I was stationed in Southern Spain, enjoyed that time, grew as a young man, and then came home and started our lives together, being married and having children, and knowing that I had to be the main provider for our family. I had nightmares about keeping the refrigerator for my wife and said, "Hey, I got to get up and go to work." That concept made me strong as being competitive in the workforce. I started out at Ford Motor Company. The day that I went and interviewed for the job, I had shirt and tie on and I was sitting at the end of the table being questioned by five or six white men as what I wanted to do. I moved on from there, got the job. The job was mopping floors in the plant. I looked at the mop and I said, "Mop, I'm sorry, but eventually I'm going to leave you because I wasn't destined to do this for the rest of my time." I moved up in the company. I got promotions to different locations, but the thing that was missing was me being a degreed person for the jobs that I was moving into. I was given jobs where I went and trained for work, but it was a challenge. And I worked as hard as I could to understand what I needed to do in the job and be proficient in doing my job. Eventually, I was on staff and I still pursued my education. I'm trying to get an education. I was getting closer and closer to retirement. When retirement came, I completed my master's and moved on from there. I was severely blessed by the Lord as for my work experience. My family was not going to be moved from Ann Arbor. I turned down a lot of positions as for moving out-of-state, out of the country. I said, "No, I'm not going to do that to them. I'm going to make sure that they get to take on the life that I was able to pursue."
• [00:57:03] JOETTA MIAL: One point in your life, you were working and going to school?
• [00:57:08] HERSHAL BROWN: Yes.
• [00:57:09] JOETTA MIAL: Finishing your degree.
• [00:57:11] HERSHAL BROWN: Yes, ma'am.
• [00:57:13] JOETTA MIAL: What's your perspective, Jennifer?
• [00:57:20] JENNIFER BROWN: As you've have heard from Hershal, we've stayed here in Ann Arbor. I started working at a local bank and I knew I wanted something more. This was after we were married and had two children. I left my job at the bank and went back to school and finished my bachelor's degree, and then I went back to the bank. Then because of that, I was able to get into bank management. I did that for 14 or 15 years. Then I really felt called to leave the bank, go back to school. By this time our oldest daughter was in college and our youngest daughter was a senior in high school. It was a big risk, but I left my job at the bank, went back to school and got my master's degree in social work. We both were in and out of school later in life, instead of just going right from high school through all of the educational process. But we were born here. We both had lived here most of the time, except for the time Hershal lived in Indiana. We didn't want to leave. We've been in our house now I think for 50 years. We like it here. It's all we know mostly. [LAUGHTER] We just decided this would be our home.
• [00:59:37] JOETTA MIAL: Well, the next question, you've hinted a little bit at some of your married life, but I want you to tell me a little bit about your married and family life and how did you all meet? Tell me what it was like when you were dating. [LAUGHTER] What was your engagement and wedding like?
• [01:00:03] HERSHAL BROWN: [OVERLAPPING] Just a sec, is that water?
• [01:00:15] JENNIFER BROWN: We were really young when we met. I was 13, Hershal was 15. Of course we met at the church. We were all had our youth groups. Even as we thought we were boyfriend and girlfriend, most of our social life was part of a bigger group. If we went to the movies, everybody went to the movies. If we went for pizza, after the movies, everybody went for pizza. We just did things as a big group. We married it was an unusual situation. We had planned to get married the same year that we actually did, but we were going to have a December wedding. His grandmother was very ill and not expected to live and he got a an emergency leave of absence to come and see her. She actually passed away the same day he arrived back here in Ann Arbor and died at the hospital. We knew he was not going to be able to get another leave of absence to come back in December to get married so we planned a very quick wedding while he was on his 30 day [LAUGHTER] leave.
• [01:02:21] JENNIFER BROWN: My mother made my dress and my veil and we had a very nice wedding. It was well attended, I thought for a two- or three-week notice. [NOISE] Back then people didn't hit the list in the Black community. Didn't have big receptions mostly, and so we had a cake and lunch reception at the Ann Arbor Community Center. [NOISE] Then people went from there back to my mother and father's house where there was food. It just all worked out. We didn't have long after that before he had to go back over to finish his tour of duty in Spain. He came home that June, and that's when he picked up and started working at Ford Motor Company.
• [01:03:28] JOETTA MIAL: Wow. You have anything to add to that Hershal?
• [01:03:35] HERSHAL BROWN: Yeah. Our honeymoon, we went to London--London Chop House. [LAUGHTER] I had $50 in my pocket, [LAUGHTER] and that was it. I had nowhere to live because I definitely wouldn't go to start our lives together being dominated by my mother. I said no. We struggled and just like I said, when I went back to Spain, I was worried about, oh man, what have I done? I've got to feed somebody now, you know? My commitment was totally to the love of my life. I said we just have to work hard to get to where we want to be. The greatest thing was that I respected Jennifer, I love Jennifer. I was walking with a friend one day and when I first saw her, I said that's going to be my wife.
• [01:04:50] JOETTA MIAL: That was at church or you said was?
• [01:04:53] HERSHAL BROWN: That was coming from school one day and I said that was going to be my wife. I hadn't officially pursued her, but that was the time that I asked her what her phone number was. [LAUGHTER]
• [01:05:18] JOETTA MIAL: Tell me about your children and what life was like when they were young and living in the house. What did your family enjoy doing together when the kids were still at home?
• [01:05:34] HERSHAL BROWN: Well, it was great because we basically were growing up with our children. We did fun things that they to this day still remember, like traveling. Our traveling was limited because back to my work concept. The more I worked, the more I understood that our finances were getting better. I didn't want to be struggling for the rest of my life trying to live and denying them any of the things that they desired in life. I worked quite a bit. I think it was six years or five years. We didn't have a major vacation because I was trying to accumulate all the hours I could at Ford Motor Company. Once we get to a certain point, we were able to go. I didn't miss anything at school, I didn't miss anything. We remained in church and we were constantly at church with our children and they enjoyed having a mother and father present all the time whenever they needed them. That was one of my objectives, was to be present and demanding with words between both of my daughters. I'm going to take it with them on me as father.
• [01:07:19] JENNIFER BROWN: We supported them from the time they started elementary school, we were very present for their school activities. We were both working full time, but we made it happen. As they grew older and started participating in after-school activities. We were there, we sometimes had to split up. I would go with one child to their activity and Hershal would go with the other one to theirs. When we got to a point we could afford to travel, we did take some trips. We took them the Walt Disney World. We took a trip up in Canada from Toronto to Montreal and we did a big family vacation to California. We weren't able to do that at first, but we got to a point that we could travel. We tried to be good parents, I'm sure we didn't do it perfectly. With two girls, we had to lay down some. [OVERLAPPING]
• [01:09:10] HERSHAL BROWN: Household rules.
• [01:09:10] JENNIFER BROWN: Household rules about how they were going to conduct themselves. Thankfully, those that were influential in their lives, even at church. They got the same message from church as they did at home. That helped to get them through. Our oldest daughter went to Florida A&M University. Our youngest daughter got a full athletic scholarship to Indiana University. They're both married and our youngest daughter has two children both are at Indiana University. Our oldest daughter has one son who's a senior in high school, and also a race car driver. They're all doing well, very independent of us. We really feel blessed that our daughters have secure families and their husbands are the best.
• [01:10:38] HERSHAL BROWN: Just a little to that. When we're talking about supporting our children. I at Ford Motor Company was leaving my office one day and I saw a bunch of people lined up. I questioned to know what was going on. They said, well, they were doing interviews for a commercial. Like I said before, I'm confident with myself and I said, "Okay, I got it." [LAUGHTER] To cut the story short, they were probably about 1,500 people interviewing. I made it down to the last 10 and then I ended up being the first African American to do a commercial for Ford Motor Company.
• [01:11:26] JOETTA MIAL: Wow.
• [01:11:29] HERSHAL BROWN: After the filming, my youngest daughter, Heather, had a Girl Scout dinner that she had to go to. We went and I was eating some spaghetti and after finishing spaghetti, you know how it gets on your face and everything. I was wiping my face off, and then I said, "I still got my makeup on from this filming that I just finished." [LAUGHTER] I started wiping the makeup off, and a lot of the mothers that were sitting there, they [LAUGHTER] looked at me like, "This guy wears makeup." [LAUGHTER]
• [01:12:11] HERSHAL BROWN: I had to explain it to them where [LAUGHTER] I'd come from and why I had makeup on. They looked at me like, yeah, we understand. [LAUGHTER]
• [01:12:24] JOETTA MIAL: That's quite a story. Were there any special days or events or traditions that you practiced that were different from your childhood traditions?
• [01:12:41] JENNIFER BROWN: Well, one thing that I demanded or whatever from my family, and this is when my grandparents were still living as well in maybe not a lot different, but I at least moved Christmas to our house, so it didn't matter, anybody could come. Hershal's mother who lived in Gary and had remarried, they could come, my grandparents could come, my parents could come, anybody that wanted to be a part of our Christmas dinner were always welcome. But I did make Christmas, I wanted to Christmas to be here. I wanted our kids not to have to travel and go from one house to the other, one city to the other. I established Christmas at our house. But other than that, a lot of the things we did were fairly similar.
• [01:14:14] JOETTA MIAL: Okay, part for work and retirement. Now, you all have gone in quite deeply about what your main field each of you is in. You've also told me how you got started, each of you. Let me ask you this. What got you interested in the work that you were doing? How did you get interested in doing it?
• [01:14:54] JENNIFER BROWN: Well, I'll start because I did start at the bank, initially as a bank teller and as I said before, I went back to school and once I completed my bachelor's degree, then they offered me a management position. I'm going to just be honest, I needed a job and I wanted something decent. I could've gone maybe down another path. It's just that I applied and they hired me. It wasn't hard work it was manual labor and I was happy that I could work in an office-like environment. So I was pleased to have that opportunity. And when I went back, when I finished my bachelor's degree and then went back into management, then it was great. I loved what I did. But I can't really say something directed me there because I needed work and I wanted something decent. Now, when I left the bank and went back to school and got my master's degree, that was all God because I was totally directed that that's where I needed to go. I think that was tugging at my heartstrings maybe for a long time. When I finished my degree, I got the perfect job. Didn't pay a lot, but that wasn't part of the deal. It was like this is what you need to be doing and I loved every minute of what I did and working with people, helping people, counseling with people. It was really I think the best part of my life when I made that decision to do that.
• [01:17:37] JOETTA MIAL: Well, let me go on with you with this next question before I go to Hershal. What did you value most about what you did for a living?
• [01:17:51] JENNIFER BROWN: Actually, I valued the time that I was able to actually just talk and it was like a little ministry. The time I was able to just be with people and hear what was going on in their lives and able to share and help where I could, even when I was in banking. That's why I felt like some of that was social work too because people would come in with all kinds of things going on in their lives and they wanted to share what was happening. I enjoyed being able to talk with them. I love the camaraderie that I had with people. And I am a people person. Going from banking to social work, it seems like it's two different areas or two different fields of study, but I think it had a lot of similarities.
• [01:19:17] JOETTA MIAL: Thank you. Hershal, what did you value most about what you did for a living.
• [01:19:25] HERSHAL BROWN: I think what a valued most about it, was that I became confident in what I was tasked to do. When I look back on my life, I said the Lord was guiding every step that I was taking. It wasn't me being super smart or being at the right place at the right time. It was the Lord that was directing me. Whenever I was promoted, I know it came from the Lord, because he send angels, to let me know that they were watching over me and to those that don't understand how powerful believing in the Lord and what He could do for you. It might sound a little crazy, but to me, guess what? It carried us all the way through. I'd never had a severe challenge of not knowing what I was doing or whatever. He prepared me for every step that He led me through and the thing that really enforced that was, I was able to help others. Let others know about the opportunities that were available and how to prepare yourself for those opportunities. I can sit and look back and see some of those that I basically mentor, to get to the positions that they were at. I didn't take it as, this is what I'm doing. I took as this is what am being led to do. When I finished with Ford Motor Company at 53 years old that came on me and I didn't even realize that I was able to retire at that age and we looked at everything and there was a very bright opportunity and so I took that and 17 days later, I was working at Ann Arbor public school system. It's just a story from there and then 12 years later when I retired from Ann Arbor public schools and worked with the county sheriff, Jerry Clayton and he was like, you just the right person I was looking for. It's just my life had been like that.
• [01:22:16] JOETTA MIAL: Wow. When thinking about your working adult life, what important social or historical events, were taking place at that time? And how did they personally affect you and your family?
• [01:22:39] JENNIFER BROWN: Well, I'll go first on that. Well, 9/11 was very impactful and it really caused me to look at the world in a totally different way than I had seen that before. It didn't have any thing necessarily to do with my work life or my family life, but it changed the way I've looked at the world. It was so horrific. I don't know how to say it, it just really impacted me and of course, the world has never been the same since, but anyway, that was just something that really most impactful for me.
• [01:24:05] HERSHAL BROWN: What was impactful for me was when Barack Obama was elected President, Jennifer and I looked at each other and we both said, we're going. We made preparation, we got there and it seemed like it was a one of the coldest days of our lives. But we were so happy and so blessed to see an African American attain that position. I saw some people that were crying. I was just happy.
• [01:24:48] JOETTA MIAL: Well, let me backup this one question. How did your life change when you and your spouse retired and the children were gone?
• [01:25:00] JENNIFER BROWN: We were happy. [LAUGHTER] You know what? I won't say that initially, I didn't drop a couple of tears when he left, but we had the type of marriage all along, where I really feel like everybody was in the right places and we valued our marriage and our relationship and we knew that our kids were not going to be with us forever, nor did we want that and so we prepared ourselves all along by spending quality time with ourselves, even what the kids hear. When they were little, we put them to bed and then we would watch a movie or we get a babysitter and we would go out. We knew how to balance our relationship from the beginning, so when they left, it was just like, now we can have more time for ourselves. We have been probably the happiest, empty nesters of anybody we know [LAUGHTER].
• [01:26:33] JENNIFER BROWN: [LAUGHTER] That doesn't mean that we don't love spending time with our kids. We love spending time with them and our grandkids, but we're happy that we'll hop on a plane in a second and go to North Carolina or jump in the car and go to Indiana and they come here as well. But we enjoy each other and we always have and so it's been great. I mean, I love it the way it is. I'm getting ready now to, COVID interrupted this, but I go with my daughters for a long four-day weekend for a girls get away. Again, this will be our first getaway since the quarantine. We go and we do crazy stuff and have a great time. But I'm looking forward to getting back home and praying that everything is all right here because we love each other and we enjoy our company and we enjoy being with one another.
• [01:27:58] HERSHAL BROWN: She loves my jokes. [LAUGHTER].
• [01:28:03] JENNIFER BROWN: You have anything to add to that Hershal?
• [01:28:06] HERSHAL BROWN: I just did. [LAUGHTER] We talk a lot between the two of us, share ideas and respect those ideas if there was a difference. Sometimes you say, well, I won't change my mind because I'm stuck on that. Well, she showed me the other side. Oh, well, I didn't look at the other side. I just stayed on this side. Knowing that that was my thought. We just have a great time especially when we were talking about going out to eat, Friday night dinner for us is a bowl of popcorn and watch a movie. [LAUGHTER] Were just as happy. She didn't have to cook. She don't want me to cook because I'll boil water, but we enjoy this time together. It was just great.
• [01:29:14] JOETTA MIAL: Wonderful. Well, we're coming to the last part and it has to do with historical and social events. Tell me how it's been for you to live in this community.
• [01:29:34] JENNIFER BROWN: Well, definitely seen a lot of changes. We were pretty segregated as I was growing up, we call them pockets. Some pockets were bigger than others. But one thing I remember about growing up is that we were--at least from the African American standpoint--we were close together, we supported one another. Everybody looked out for everybody else's children. You couldn't get away with anything because everybody was your parent. We didn't have cell phones or internet but you can rest assured that if you were acting up by the time you got home, your parents knew about it, I don't know how [LAUGHTER] but they knew about it. Everybody went to one or two or three churches and so our life was centered there and the church wasn't far from where you lived. Your schools weren't far from where you lived, everything was compact. Now and of course, we didn't want to remain segregated and we didn't want to be considered second class citizens and so as a result of desegregation, so many opportunities opened up. Now people are able to live mostly where they want to, I say mostly and can pursue higher education and can mostly get jobs compared to their level of education. We have so many more opportunities than we did back when I was little. Sometimes I miss that close connectivity that we had. But then again, the opportunities have opened up so much more than they did when I was growing up and I think probably for both of us.
• [01:32:49] JOETTA MIAL: Do you have anything to add to that Hershal?
• [01:32:52] HERSHAL BROWN: Yeah. I can deal with change. But what strikes me the most, that makes me sad is to see our young boys and young girls, African Americans throwing their lives away with drugs, with ignorance, with I don't care [OVERLAPPING] violence. It just bothers me because back in our day, we could have a dispute with someone, it might get physical, but the next day we're back together again. We had the same events and stuff. Now, a concern about life is just gone, disrespect. The family structure is just broken down and I'm just looking at it and praying for those that are out there that, is there going to be a coming back to really loving each other and respecting each other and that's what bothers me the most. You look at our school situation where the children are going to school, but they're not absorbing any education. They're not looking towards challenging [OVERLAPPING] themselves. It just bothers me, and the thing is seeing that and trying to work with them is an uphill battle. We just pray for change.
• [01:35:07] JOETTA MIAL: When thinking back over your entire life, what are you most proud of?
• [01:35:13] HERSHAL BROWN: Our marriage. [LAUGHTER] She still chases after me. [LAUGHTER]
• [01:35:27] JOETTA MIAL: Jennifer?
• [01:35:28] JENNIFER BROWN: I'm very happy that we have each other. If you're not happy in your marriage, then it I think overflows into your work life, your social life, I think it has a big impact and I'm thankful for every day that we wake up when we're still here. Because we do enjoy our time together and we have very similar ideas. Not that we don't disagree at times, but we have very similar goals and outlook on life and that's been very important. I think our employment has given us great satisfaction. We've had jobs that we enjoy, and we've been in churches that have ministered to us and so all of that together has made a very pleasant life for us. We've lost people we love. But I think all of that combined has made for a good life for us and I'm very thankful.
• [01:37:34] JOETTA MIAL: Wow. Thank you. Hershal?
• [01:37:36] HERSHAL BROWN: [inaudible 01:37:36] [LAUGHTER]
• [01:37:44] JOETTA MIAL: Yeah. What would you all say has changed the most from the time you were a young person to now?
• [01:37:55] HERSHAL BROWN: My hair. [LAUGHTER] I don't know where this white stuff came from.
• [01:38:03] JENNIFER BROWN: I think for me, I think technology has been the thing that has been the most shocking. [LAUGHTER] I mean, we've seen cars change, but I think technology has really impressed me and how we went from corded landlines or landlines that were corded it into the walls and now we walk around with hand-held computers. I don't feel I'm doing too bad with it. I mean, I can't be on top of every new piece of technology, but I try real hard to stay up because I like technical and so I worked real hard to try to keep up with it. But to answer your question, I think for me technology has been the most shocking or the thing that has impressed me the most, that's the biggest change that I've seen.
• [01:39:34] JOETTA MIAL: Besides your hair, Hershal, what else?
• [01:39:37] HERSHAL BROWN: Well, we both agree with the technology point.
• [01:39:42] JOETTA MIAL: Last question, what advice would you give to the younger generation?
• [01:40:01] HERSHAL BROWN: Say no.
• [01:40:01] JENNIFER BROWN: I would say to them to be kind, to work hard, to study hard, to love the Lord, and to respect our natural resources, to be good citizens, to participate in developing a good community wherever they'd love to be involved with what's going on in their world and in their community. It's a lot but doing nothing then means that you will accept whatever somebody else says you need to do and we'll lay down laws and you may be in a community where then you're not happy with how things are going so be involved, be kind, help others. Then again, most importantly, come to know and serve and know the Lord in your life.
• [01:41:41] HERSHAL BROWN: Amen
• [01:41:43] JOETTA MIAL: You say amen to that?
• [01:41:45] HERSHAL BROWN: Yes, I did.
• [01:41:47] JOETTA MIAL: Anything to add?
• [01:41:49] HERSHAL BROWN: No.
• [01:41:50] JOETTA MIAL: No. Well, you all, this has been an absolute delight. [NOISE] Thank you so much for sharing your life, your struggles. It was wonderful. Thank you so very much.
• [01:42:06] HERSHAL BROWN: Thank you too.