AACHM Oral History: Sandra Harris

Thu, 06/29/2023 - 4:30pm

When: June 26, 2023

Sandra Harris was born in 1952 in West Virginia, where her father was a coal miner. Her family moved to Ann Arbor when she was in second grade. Harris remembers being on the homecoming court at Pioneer High School and participating in student-led marches during the late 1960s. She received her bachelor’s, master’s and doctorate degrees from Eastern Michigan University. She was a school administrator in the Ann Arbor Public Schools as well as other districts. In addition to her service as an educator, she was also a longtime caretaker for her nephew and her mother.

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Transcript

• [00:00:17] JOYCE HUNTER: [MUSIC] First of all Sandra I want to thank you for agreeing to be interviewed for our Living Oral History Project. Believe it or not, this is our 10th year. And so we've had some wonderful people to interview and we're glad to add you to that list of people.
• [00:00:32] SANDRA HARRIS: Thank you.
• [00:00:33] JOYCE HUNTER: Part 1 is going to be demographics and family history. I'm first going to ask you some simple demographic questions. These questions may jog your memories, but please keep your answers brief and to the point for now. We can go into more detail later in the interview. Please say and spell your name.
• [00:00:53] SANDRA HARRIS: My name is Sandra Harris, S-A-N-D-R-A H-A-R-R-I-S.
• [00:01:03] JOYCE HUNTER: What is your date of birth including the year?
• [00:01:06] SANDRA HARRIS: June 29th, 1952.
• [00:01:10] JOYCE HUNTER: How would you describe your ethnic background?
• [00:01:14] SANDRA HARRIS: As African American.
• [00:01:17] JOYCE HUNTER: What is your religion, if any?
• [00:01:20] SANDRA HARRIS: I'm a Baptist.
• [00:01:22] JOYCE HUNTER: What is the highest level of formal education you have completed?
• [00:01:26] SANDRA HARRIS: A doctorate degree.
• [00:01:30] JOYCE HUNTER: What is your marital status?
• [00:01:32] SANDRA HARRIS: I am single.
• [00:01:36] JOYCE HUNTER: How many children do you have?
• [00:01:37] SANDRA HARRIS: I do not have any children.
• [00:01:41] JOYCE HUNTER: How many siblings do you have?
• [00:01:44] SANDRA HARRIS: Currently, I have two brothers and two sisters, and I had a third brother who passed away about eight years ago.
• [00:01:55] JOYCE HUNTER: What was your primary occupation?
• [00:01:58] SANDRA HARRIS: I could call myself a lifelong educator.
• [00:02:05] JOYCE HUNTER: This next question probably will see what you say. At what age did you retire?
• [00:02:12] SANDRA HARRIS: [LAUGHTER] Well, initially, I retired at 58, and then after a few years, I failed retirement and I started back to work as consulting then part-time and then I went back to full-time.
• [00:02:29] JOYCE HUNTER: That's why I chuckled when I came to that. [LAUGHTER] Part 2 is memories of childhood and youth. This part of the interview is about your childhood and youth. Once again, even if these questions jog memories about other times in your life, please only respond with memories for this part of your life. What was your family like when you were a child?
• [00:02:54] SANDRA HARRIS: We were a big family. There were six children in the family, mom and dad, and so we were like any, I could maybe say economically disadvantaged family. We were from West Virginia. My father was a coal miner and my mother was what they call a beautician back then. My father did most of the work, my mother just worked part-time. I have some memories, I left West Virginia when I was seven years old and I'd only attended first grade there in West Virginia and I started second grade here in Ann Arbor. Most of my childhood memories will be up here in Michigan. There were, I just think of big family gatherings, because we moved to Michigan because my father had relatives here. He had a brother and a sister and a niece. So there were big family gatherings and I just think of basically happy times and they were hardworking people. I have fond memories of my childhood.
• [00:04:09] JOYCE HUNTER: What is some of your earliest memories of your childhood?
• [00:04:12] SANDRA HARRIS: Well, I have to share that one of my earliest memories, as I said, I've started first grade in West Virginia and in the little small town that I came from there was not a kindergarten. It was the type of thing where my family only had one car. My father needed that car to go to the coal mines, so there were a couple elementary schools there in the area. One was basically all Black students, and one was all white students, and the school that was all white students was the one that was closest to me and walking distance to my home. Because my father had to use the car to go to the mines, I went to an all white school my first grade year, I was the only Black student in the whole school. As much as I have to say it, I really feel that that's where I received my good basic foundation for my education. Because when I came to Ann Arbor there was a practice here that students who came from the South were just automatically put back a grade. I remember coming here and starting in second grade, and I remember being put in the lowest reading class. Every day of the week, I was moved up to a different reading group. That's when they had the birds and the bees, and they had all these names for the reading groups, and by the end of the week, I was in the highest reading group. I have to say that and I guess that's why as an educator, I've really been a strong proponent of putting resources in the elementary schools, because if you get that foundation and get that base then that will carry the students. That's a solid foundation to help them for the rest of their educational career. That's one memory I have of my earliest childhood experiences as a child.
• [00:06:05] JOYCE HUNTER: I'm going to ask you more about that. You said you got your foundation there, but being the only Black in that class, were there any issues for you, or problem?
• [00:06:18] SANDRA HARRIS: You know what? Not only the only Black in the class, but this was a school that was grades 1 through 12, so I was the only Black student in the whole school. I have to say that as a six-year-old child, I really don't remember any issues of racism or anything. Maybe there were things happening and I didn't recognize it and didn't see it and didn't know. But I don't recall anything. I do remember back in those days, I remember every morning standing up and saying the pledge to the flag and I remember how they used to literally check your hands and make sure your hands are clean when you came to school and things like that. But I don't remember any overt racism or anything. I don't have any memories of any incidents that would scar me for life.
• [00:07:11] JOYCE HUNTER: Were there any special days, events, or family traditions you remember from your childhood?
• [00:07:19] SANDRA HARRIS: Within my family?
• [00:07:21] JOYCE HUNTER: Yes.
• [00:07:22] SANDRA HARRIS: Oh, yes. Well, I have to say that Christmas was my mother's favorite time of year, and Thanksgiving. Her birthday was between the two holidays. Every year from Thanksgiving up through New Year's really it was just like one big celebration. I just remembered that from my earliest days when I came here as a child, here in Ann Arbor. The big family gatherings that we would have for Thanksgiving or Christmas, get-together with friends and family on New Year's Day, so those are the fond memories that I have.
• [00:08:04] JOYCE HUNTER: Why do you think Christmas was your mother's.
• [00:08:08] SANDRA HARRIS: Favorite?
• [00:08:09] JOYCE HUNTER: Favorite, yes.
• [00:08:11] SANDRA HARRIS: I think she liked all the decorations. She would really just go all out. She liked the decorations. She liked just getting together. We had a practice, on New Year's Eve we would go around to all the sibling's homes and have refreshments and everything. Then we'd end up back at my mother's house and a big gathering, Christmas Eve, and then everybody'd come back over to mom's house on Christmas Day. I think it's just all the fixings and she loved doing the shopping. Oh, my goodness. Like the day after Thanksgiving. We'd hit every mall between here and Oakland and Wayne County, shopping for Christmas and she just loved doing that.
• [00:08:56] JOYCE HUNTER: That's great.
• [00:08:58] JOYCE HUNTER: Now, at a higher level, you talked about elementary, but at a higher grade level, did you play any sports or join any other activities outside of school?
• [00:09:09] SANDRA HARRIS: Outside of school, I didn't play any sports outside of school, but the one thing that I do remember is at the time I moved to Ann Arbor, the Ann Arbor Community Center was operating there on North Main Street. I remember going down there as a child after school for various after-school activities. Also, one of the first things we did when we came to Ann Arbor was join a church. I joined Second Baptist Church of Ann Arbor of where I'm still a member. I remember the pastor's wife had just such a devotion to children and she had youth groups that would meet. People asked me about my leadership skills and I have to say, I've learned my leadership skills at my church through Saturday morning sessions with Mrs. Carpenter and other activities and things that were going on there at the church. That's where I have to say, I first learned how to be a leader.
• [00:10:20] JOYCE HUNTER: That's great. Now, in terms of activities within the school at the secondary level, did you participate in any school sports or activities?
• [00:10:29] SANDRA HARRIS: I was on the class executive boards. I always called myself an unofficial cheerleader Because I'd have everybody going in the stands [LAUGHTER]. I wasn't down on the floor but I sure would have cheering going on up in the stands. I know I coached field hockey one year when I was a teacher over at Clague. I might have played for a year, that was a long time ago. I can't really remember, but I know I coached field hockey once I started teaching, but going back to my high school days, being on the class executive boards, and being in the French Club and those type of extra curricular activities. That's what I was involved in.
• [00:11:13] JOYCE HUNTER: In terms of the French club. Do you speak French now?
• [00:11:20] SANDRA HARRIS: Just very little [LAUGHTER]. It's funny you should mention that because I was sharing with a friend yesterday, years ago, when students became seniors at Ann Arbor High School, every year they would take a trip to Williamsburg. That was their senior trip. They had senior trips. Well, by the time I started high school, we had started trips to foreign countries. In my junior year, my first flight was to Paris with the French club. Then they had trips going to Paris, Munich, Madrid, Moscow, London, and Rome. Depending on if you were in taking humanities classes, you could go to Rome or London, if you were in the German club, you went to Munich and the Spanish club went to Madrid. Those were wonderful experiences. In my junior year I went to Paris and in my senior year I went to London. We took off, and it was three hundred some students on a plane and they would drop the groups off at different airports. Those are memorable experiences.
• [00:12:43] JOYCE HUNTER: That was quite a first trip to go to Paris.
• [00:12:46] SANDRA HARRIS: It was, it was, I remember the week cost $329 [LAUGHTER]. That was for everything. Of course, I guess we had fundraisers or whatever, but things were just so much less expensive 50-plus years ago [LAUGHTER].
• [00:13:05] JOYCE HUNTER: It's great.
• [00:13:06] SANDRA HARRIS: Yes.
• [00:13:07] JOYCE HUNTER: What about your school experience is different from school as you know it today?
• [00:13:14] SANDRA HARRIS: Yes. Well, because I have always been one to be involved. It never really bothered me that as I finished coming through elementary school, junior high school, and that's what it was back then rather than middle school. Most times, I was the only Black student in my class. Then when I got to high school, it was basically the same way. When I was in high school, they had different curricula for different students. There was a vocational curriculum, there was a general curriculum, and there was a college curriculum. I remember somehow being placed on the general curriculum and I remember my mother going up to the school and telling them, no, I would not be on the general curriculum. I would be on the college curriculum. I had two counselors that were very supportive of me. One who really was responsible for me going to Eastern Michigan University because of the connections that he had there and everything. Yes, so that was one thing that that I remember quite well. I also have to say at that time that was now, think about this, my high school years were '68 through '70. My high school experience was very unique. In the 10th grade, we had over 3,300 students at Ann Arbor High School. They had started building Huron High School, but it wasn't complete. During my junior year, the school was supposed to open and we would be split. Well, the school didn't open, anybody who gets involved with building projects, things don't always operate on time. What they did was they had the Pioneer students attend school 7:30-12:30, and the Huron students went to school in Pioneer's building 1-6. That was my junior year. Then my senior year in high school, we had the school to ourselves. Right now because we all started school together when we have our class reunions, it's like the class of '70. It is not the Huron class or the Pioneer class. We have our reunions jointly because we started together and we have stayed together these last 53 years.
• [00:15:54] JOYCE HUNTER: I just realized that you were part of that split in the morning and afternoon. I didn't realize you were a part of that split.
• [00:16:04] SANDRA HARRIS: Yes. The other thing, Joyce, is that now keep in mind, starting in 1968, that was the year that Dr. King was assassinated. Up until then, you didn't have Black students in a lot of extracurricular activities. You didn't have Black students in advanced placement classes. You didn't have Black cheerleaders. You didn't have Blacks on homecoming court. I mean, those things just didn't happen. I remember and this is one thing that just really touches me so deeply when I walk into a building now, I see sometimes our Black students being less than academic, when I think about what we did back then. What we did was we boycotted classes and we marched to the Board of Education, which was over on Wells Street at that time, and demanded that Black students have those same opportunities as white students. After that, we got Black cheerleaders. I think there may have been one before then. If I'm not mistaken Pat Manley may have been one. But it was it wasn't routine. If there was a Black on the cheerleading squad that wasn't normal, that wasn't the way it usually was. I remember I was the second Black female on the homecoming court at Pioneer High School. There was one other Black student before me, Joanne Baker Gomez. She was, I believe, the first Black girl on the homecoming court. I was the second. When I think about how we fought so that Black students could have the same privileges and opportunities as other students and when I see our Black students not take advantage of that, that really touches me, that hurts me because it's like, wait, you guys, it hasn't always been like this. Somebody had to make some sacrifices so that they could do those things and be a part of everything.
• [00:18:17] JOYCE HUNTER: That's so true. Tell me a little bit more about that march, marching to the office.
• [00:18:25] SANDRA HARRIS: Yes. We went over to the Board of Education and it was very peaceful. We had the opportunity to share our concerns. They listened and there were changes that were made. I would say it was successful.
• [00:18:42] JOYCE HUNTER: Changes in terms of [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:18:44] SANDRA HARRIS: After that we had Black cheerleaders, more Black cheerleaders. Blacks were in more extracurricular activities, they were more involved in. They were in advanced classes. Somewhere around there they started getting rid of that voc ed, general college curriculum, I mean, the tracking that was going on. I think that started to lessen after this march, and after these changes occurred.
• [00:19:26] JOYCE HUNTER: So moving to the next question. Did your family have any special sayings or expressions during this time?
• [00:19:35] SANDRA HARRIS: Well, yes. [LAUGHTER] And I'm always saying something that my mother said or my father said. My mother would say, "Everything that shines is not gold." "Anything that sounds too good to be true? It is." And my father would always tell us, "You know what, you just do the right thing and everything else will take care of itself. You don't have to get down in the dirt with anybody else. You know, you just do the right thing." And so I carry those sayings with me today along with others.
• [00:20:10] JOYCE HUNTER: Those sayings are still very much out there because I've heard them many times as well. Were there any changes in your family life during your school years?
• [00:20:22] SANDRA HARRIS: Well, sometimes I felt like I was an eternal student because I was always in school. In my high school days, no, our family remained intact. When I was in college, this would have been probably, I believe when I was, it was between degrees. So I'd completed my master's degree and before I started my specialist's, my father passed away. Being a coal miner for 26 years, he had developed black lung and so that eventually caused his demise. So that made a difference in the family dynamics. I mean, my mother was then alone and so at that time, I moved back in with her so that I could help take care of her. And did that until she passed 27 years later.
• [00:21:22] JOYCE HUNTER: I remember how close you and your mother were and how you traveled together. .
• [00:21:26] SANDRA HARRIS: Yes.
• [00:21:28] SANDRA HARRIS: So this next section is pretty long in terms of questions, but I can repeat anything you want me to repeat.
• [00:21:34] SANDRA HARRIS: Okay.
• [00:21:35] JOYCE HUNTER: When thinking back on your school years, what important social or historical events were taking place at that time? And how did they personally affect you and your family?
• [00:21:48] SANDRA HARRIS: Well, certainly coming up in the early '70s, and being in college then, I look back, I still have my school ID with the big Angela Davis fro, that type of thing. Certainly first of all, the Civil Rights Movement and then the Black Power movement, so to speak there in the early '70s. And so it had an impact. Because of these movements, Joyce, there were more opportunities open to African American students. I remember back in the 70s, I think in the early 70s, one might be able to count on one hand, how many Black teachers there were here in Ann Arbor. And so after this happened, more Black teachers were hired. I rode to school, I had a Black teacher who lived across the street from me who taught at Ann Arbor High for many years, Herb Ellis, and I would ride to school with him everyday. He'd give me a ride to school every day while I was in high school because he was going that way. And so those movements did impact the family. If it impacts the society certainly it has an impact on the family as well. We were encouraged to take advantage of opportunities that my parents didn't have. I am a first-generation college student, so they wanted their children to have a better life than what they had. So we were encouraged to take advantage of opportunities that were becoming available to African American students.
• [00:23:47] JOYCE HUNTER: All right, so this next section of questions, basically you've already shared about your elementary school, your high school. But I want to go down to talk a little bit more. You mentioned Herb Ellis. Who were the Black teachers?
• [00:24:04] SANDRA HARRIS: I remember Herb Ellis. Joyce, when I think about it, I'm trying to think if I actually had any Black teachers when I came through Pioneer, because I didn't have Mr. Ellis for a science teacher. I don't remember him. I don't remember Black teachers at Forsythe. There might've been one or two, but I didn't have them as teachers. And certainly I don't remember any at Mack School when I was a student there. Now, once I finished school and I went back to Pioneer High School to do my student teaching and then I worked there at Pioneer High School for 13 years. So a lot of the teachers who were my teachers were now my colleagues and so at that time there were more, I think maybe by that time we had like Mr. Burel Ford in social studies, I believe Sam Holloway might have been there. Maybe Harry Hayward had come by that time. There were more. Margaret Smith. I don't know if she started at Pioneer, she may have been at Slauson first, but I know she was at Pioneer when I was there. A Black counselor, Virginia Bailey was a counselor there. Again, as time went on Ann Arbor Public Schools did make an effort to put more Black teachers and counselors and others into the schools. As bad as it is to say, I remember when Ann Arbor had 26 elementary schools and they actually had a goal to have at least two Black teachers in every school and as bad as it is to say Joyce, some of those schools, they never met that goal. I'm not sure if King School ever met that goal. I think Cheryl Jones might have been the only one there for, what was it, 39 or 42 years that she worked there. So I think it's still probably a challenge today trying to get African American teachers into the classrooms.
• [00:26:31] JOYCE HUNTER: So do you remember who your first Black teacher was and how it made you feel?
• [00:26:39] SANDRA HARRIS: I don't remember having a Black teacher all while I was in school. I do remember, when I went to college, Rose Wingo was my adviser. That was a good feeling. [LAUGHTER] But I'm trying to think, and I'd have to think back, Joyce, but I just don't remember and I feel very comfortable in saying that I didn't have any because if I had, I would have remembered them. But I remembered other special teachers, but I do not recall having a Black teacher all while I was in school.
• [00:27:19] JOYCE HUNTER: We're going to talk now about restaurants, eating places, and accommodations for Blacks. Were there restaurants or eating places for Blacks where you lived as you were growing up?
• [00:27:34] SANDRA HARRIS: Like I said, my parents were hardworking people. Once my father left the coal mines, and at the time he left the coal mines, everyone there in West Virginia thought he was crazy. The coal mines were booming. We were doing well for where we lived and everything. After he moved to Ann Arbor, less than two years, the coal mines where he was working closed down. Because he didn't have any skills, my father never finished high school because he had to start work early to help take care of the family, he was a custodian and my mother was a nurse's aide working at University Hospital, and so they couldn't afford babysitters. What they did, my father worked during the day and my mother worked midnights. Joyce, say the question again because there was a reason I was going in that direction. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:28:41] JOYCE HUNTER: That's fine. Were there restaurants or eating places? [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:28:44] SANDRA HARRIS: Restaurants. I was talking about our living conditions. Because of our economic status, we didn't go out to eat. There was a Roy's drive-in, I believe, out on Michigan Avenue in Ypsi. Sometimes a Friday evening treat might go on out there. That's where you drive up, it used to be like A&W and they bring the tray out, set it on the window, that type of thing. That was a treat for us, going out there and getting hot dogs and hamburgers, maybe once or twice a month. But as a family, there were six children. We couldn't go to a restaurant and pull a sit-down at a table. My parents just could not afford that. I'm trying to think, it might have been in my later years, maybe when I was in high school, my older sister and brother were out on their own. We had a practice of every Friday going out to dinner, and so we would go different places. I'm trying to think. One of the places, believe it or not, we really liked going was up there on Main Street, the German restaurant that has eat, drink, and be merry out there. We liked going there. My father, at that point, his health was starting to decline a little bit, so he didn't go out as much, but we would always bring a carryout home to him. The restaurants, whatever was there, of course, they didn't have all the Real Seafood Company and none of those places. I'm trying to think where we did go besides Roy's Squeeze Inn and the one up there on Main Street. I just have to think back to what restaurants might have been around. There was a Chinese place out there on West Stadium Boulevard, Sze-Chuan, I think it was called, and so we would go out there. We never had problems in terms of being treated differently when we got there, nothing that I can recall. But any restaurants that are around that we would like to try out over on Plymouth Road where the DoubleTree is now, there used to be a Win Schuler's there, and so we would go there. We would go different places, try it out, and it was a good experience. At that time, I was in high school, I had a job and everything, so things were better.
• [00:31:27] JOYCE HUNTER: I was going to ask you that, but you answered it in terms of, in some interviews, people talk about there were certain restaurants where they didn't go to or they didn't feel welcome. Did you have that experience?
• [00:31:40] SANDRA HARRIS: I don't recall anywhere there was anything that stood out happening. No.
• [00:31:50] JOYCE HUNTER: One more question in this section. Blacks came to town or came to visit, were there hotels where they could stay? How were they accommodated?
• [00:31:58] SANDRA HARRIS: Oh, wow. Now, Joyce, that I'm not sure about. We would have family reunions back then. However, Joyce, we were talking about hotels, but there was one thing that I mentioned and that was working, so jobs. I think that that was an important piece, especially my growing up because when I think about it, I started working at the age of 14. There used to be a Kresge's on Main Street, and I remember working there at the soda fountain. I worked there for six days. There are things that motivated me to really want to get an education. I worked there behind that soda fountain for six days. That was the hardest work, and back that time, somebody would tip you five cents and tell you to split it with the other two waitresses, that type of thing. I worked there for six days and I said, nope, this type of work is not for me. Then I started working at the University of Michigan in the Health Service up there on Fletcher Street, and I worked helping the registrar register students that were coming in for different things and things like that. Then after that, it was all office work because after all, that's what I was majoring in in high school in my career technical education area. I think I might have been on work-study there at the University of Michigan graduate library. I worked there for three years, 10th, 11th, and 12th grades, as a keypunch operator. Then I worked all through college. I've never had a time in my life where I wasn't working, except for when I retired. When I retired for those three years, I didn't work then but that was the only time I have actually never worked.
• [00:34:09] JOYCE HUNTER: I was going to say retired for a short period.
• [00:34:15] JOYCE HUNTER: So we're going to move now to a Part 3, adulthood, marriage and family life. This set of questions covers a fairly long period of your life, from the time you completed your education, entered the labor force, until you left home or retired. I modified this because I know some of your background here. So after you finished high school, where did you live?
• [00:34:41] SANDRA HARRIS: I've lived on Eastern's campus for three years. I lived in the dormitory, and then in my senior year I came home. Let me see. So I lived in a dormitory for two and a half years. The second semester of my junior year I was an exchange student to England, so I was over there for a semester. Then I came home. I stayed at home during my senior year, so that I could save some money and work and buy a car so that I could have a way to get around when I started my student teaching. And so that's when I worked over at Kroger's on Broadway. [LAUGHTER] That's when I found out about sup hose and Wallabee shoes. [LAUGHTER] So I stayed home while doing my student teaching. As soon as I got my job, and I think, Joyce, this is probably where I first met you, is when I was working at the county building in the county clerk's office and you were in the treasurer's office. And so then I moved out, got my own apartment out at International Drive. And then when I got my first teaching job, I moved over to Woodbury Gardens into a different apartment. [LAUGHTER] And so I lived there for a number of years, and then I got my own home. And then after my father died, then I got rid of my home and moved in with my mother.
• [00:36:26] JOYCE HUNTER: So talk to me a little bit about being an exchange student in England.
• [00:36:31] SANDRA HARRIS: Well, I was one where I'd like to be a trailblazer. I like to blaze new paths and hopefully open up doors for others. I liked to do unique things. I didn't like being the same routine and rut all the time. So when I was a junior in high school, I applied to be an exchange student in England. I went to Berkshire College of Education in Reading, England. And I was accepted and I did that and had the opportunity to travel all over England, Scotland, and Wales. And so that was a great experience, and I would recommend it for any students that are able to do it. Same thing, Joyce, when I was working in the Career Technical Education Department there at Ann Arbor public schools, I had the opportunity to travel to China for three weeks with a delegation of vocational educators, and I did that. So I always wanted to do something different. And because of that, Joyce, that's why I've been the first in a number of areas. Again, I'd like to try to go and pave the way and make a path for others.
• [00:37:47] JOYCE HUNTER: That's great. And you're correct there, I think that is the first time we met. We both were working at the Washtenaw County offices.
• [00:37:58] SANDRA HARRIS: I will share, I don't know, Joyce, if you remember this one thing that stands out to me. I don't know if you remember the coffee shop that was around the corner from the treasurer's office? And when I worked there, and bless his heart, it was Herb Ellis who helped me get that job. And I worked there part-time during the school year and full-time during the summers. And the average age, keep in mind, I'm a 20-year-old college student there, the only Black woman working in the office, and the average age of the folks working in that office was about 65. And so of course, to a 20-year-old college student that was like, that was old. But anyway, the point I'm trying to make it was all older people. And I never will forget, one day, one of the older white women who worked in the office came up to me and said, "Sandy, would you run around to the coffee shop and get me--" whatever it was she wanted me to get. And so I looked at her and I said, "When I started this job, my supervisor did not tell me that running errands to the coffee shop was part of my job description." She said, "She won't mind." And I looked at her and very politely said, "Yes, but I do." That just goes to show you the thinking that was in some of their minds, is like, we get this little Black girl here and her job is to run errands for us. So that cut that out, that stopped there.
• [00:39:42] JOYCE HUNTER: It was great that you just spoke up being a younger person.
• [00:39:47] SANDRA HARRIS: Exactly, I had been around long enough, and I don't by any means mean to paint a rosy picture that my life was a crystal stair, because it certainly was not. And certainly, I have been subjected to racism and all the other -isms while growing up. Just the profession that I was in, a profession that is dominated by white males. I could write a book about some of the challenges and the struggles and white men not talking to me, not speaking to me and things like that because I had my job, that type of thing. Because by that time, Joyce, coming through Eastern and Ann Arbor and places, I had been exposed to enough to know, yeah I see what this is like. So yes, I was going to speak up because I realized once you start something, there goes my mother, once you start something, you got to keep it up. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:40:55] JOYCE HUNTER: So when talking about -isms, is there any one or two that stands out that you'd like to share?
• [00:41:03] SANDRA HARRIS: Well, certainly the racism and the -ism for being a female, like I said, and just the gender discrimination all being in the field, it was a challenge. But I had strong mentors and strong supporters, one of them being Dr. James Hawkins, who I would call sometimes on a daily basis. "This just happened, how do I go about handling this?" I worked in a school district where I had a board member say to me, "You people are taking over the district." You people. So you have someone like that who's your boss, you can imagine what the working conditions were like.
• [00:42:17] JOYCE HUNTER: And I have to say too, while he was my mentor, I just admired Dr. Hawkins so much. I've called on him for other things and he always comes through, he never fails.
• [00:42:27] SANDRA HARRIS: He does even until now.
• [00:42:33] JOYCE HUNTER: So this next section talks about married life and family. I know you're single, but I don't know if there's anything that you want to share in this section at all.
• [00:42:49] SANDRA HARRIS: My thing is, okay, so while I'm waiting to get my MRS degree, this is while I was in college, I said, I might as well be making myself useful and going ahead and getting more education while I'm waiting to get my MRS degree. [LAUGHTER] But anyway, back in the late 1990s, I was engaged to be married. And it was one of my childhood sweethearts, and we had grown up, gone our separate ways, came around full circle and decided to get married in 2001. Two months before the wedding, he passed away from a brain aneurysm. I'm telling you that was an experience that was just completely devastating. I'm a dissertation chair for some students now, and I was looking through my dissertation few days ago, and just thumbing through it and I looked at the dedication page, and I looked at where I had included his name in there because he was such a helpful and great force in helping me to get through that whole process. But yeah, since then I just feel, Joyce, I'm one of those where I just feel that the Lord has the plans for me. And to be honest with you, when I was growing up, I wanted to grow up, get married and have six or eight kids. I wanted a huge family. Sometimes I was just telling somebody the other day, I said, "If somebody had told me I wouldn't be married with eight kids, I wouldn't have believed it." [LAUGHTER] Of course, the older I got, the fewer children I wanted. [LAUGHTER]
• [00:44:48] JOYCE HUNTER: Eight children, Sandy.
• [00:44:50] SANDRA HARRIS: When people say, well, how many children do you have? I say, "Let me see if there are 3,400 in my school district, that's how many I have." But I raised my nephew, my younger sister was a teen parent, and so when he was born, my grandparents, they stepped in and my mother and father were raising him and then my father passed away and then I stepped in. From the age of 10 up until he graduated from high school and started college, I was like a mother to him. As a matter of fact, when he got married and you know how they have the mother walk down the aisle, he had his mother, his grandmother--my mother--and me, we all walked down the aisle as his mother. As a matter of fact, I don't know if you remember, Joyce, but I took him around with me so much, people actually thought he was my son. He went on all the trips with my mother and me, he was a good kid, he was just an excellent, well-behaved young man and everything. We took him, he was five years old, run around the hotel at the Rose Bowl. We took him out to the Rose Bowl where everybody thought he was the cutest thing running around in his Michigan sweatshirt. I had that connection, I have a lot of nieces and nephews that I had been a mentor to and still am. As a matter of fact, I had two of them , well really three of them that went into education because of auntie [LAUGHTER]. Even though I don't have biological children, I have been a mother figure to many students. I went to a wedding a couple of years ago and the bride literally stopped the reception line and started telling everybody, "Oh my goodness, I had Ms. Harris for teacher over at Clague." And started talking about how wonderful I was and saying all these things, and my eyes just watered, it's like you just never know, and this is what I say as I train young people to be teachers and administrators, you never know the impact you're having on a child, and never would have thought that I had such an impact on that young lady. She didn't hesitate to let anybody know, so I feel good about that. Sometimes you wonder, oh gee, why am I here? Why am I there and that type of thing? Even now, as I was saying earlier, I'm a dissertation chair and I'm a mentor and a chair and an encouragement to some young African American females who are going through the program. I work at an institution that is just largely white. Really, I can say I'm probably the only African American person, they're going to come in contact with in their whole doctoral program, and so they can call me, and I can give them advice, I can encourage them, and I say to myself, this is why the Lord has you where you are right now, this is what you're supposed to be doing. My thing is, I often tell people I could not be where I am today, Joyce, if someone had not helped me. I feel that part of my responsibility in life is to reach back and pull others along and help others and so that's what I do.
• [00:48:41] JOYCE HUNTER: That's so special, and especially the young lady stopping in the middle of her receiving line.
• [00:48:49] SANDRA HARRIS: Do you remember Linda Griffin? I don't know if she went-- [OVERLAPPING]
• [00:48:54] JOYCE HUNTER: I remember that name.
• [00:48:55] SANDRA HARRIS: --went to Huron, and I'm just like, wow. [LAUGHTER] This is what I tell young people the reward for the field that we're in, we're not going to end up being millionaires, being educators. However, the reward that we get, it's not in the form of money, it's not a monetary reward. It's those rewards, the impact that you can shape and mold a young person's life, that's where the reward comes in for me.
• [00:49:28] JOYCE HUNTER: That leads right into this question which you already answered. What do you value most about what you did for a living? While you're still doing and why?
• [00:49:37] SANDRA HARRIS: Yes, it is just helping other people, helping them to realize their full potential, encouraging them and being a role model, and saying this is the way you're supposed to do it because I realized, if I ran into a pitfall, nobody else should have to go through that pitfall that I'm working with. I should be able to save them, hey, watch out for this or watch out for that. That's what would have been helpful to me coming up back then, and I'm still working with a lot of students who are first-generation college students and telling them they don't have the type of counseling, I didn't have counseling in terms of careers and stuff like that. Coming out of my home it's like I ended up in education because I knew from a child, I always wanted to be a teacher, and so I didn't need career counseling, I knew that. But what I've done and what has been rewarding to me is being of service to someone else, I can say that I am truly a servant leader. Even you can ask any of my employees that I've ever worked with, I always told them I don't look at myself as the queen bee, my job is to make your job easier, and that's what I always tried to do, is like, what can I hope you do to get things done? What can I do to help you? I guess what I would have to say is, I just truly feel that I am a servant leader and that my job is to help somebody, I just can't help but think of the song. Was it--no, Dr. King's song is "Precious Lord." This one is, "If I can help somebody, then my living will not be in vain." And so that's how I live.
• [00:51:38] JOYCE HUNTER: I love that song as well.
• [00:51:40] SANDRA HARRIS: Yes, and Joyce after all, that's why look at where in some of the same public service organizations, what are we doing? We're helping other people.
• [00:51:51] JOYCE HUNTER: So true. When thinking back on your work in adult life, what important social or historical events were taking place at that time? How did they personally affect you and/or your family?
• [00:52:05] SANDRA HARRIS: Well, I was sharing with someone recently, people in our age, we are seeing so much in our lifetime. I started school the year of Brown v. the Board of Education. I guess that's how I could go to that all white school. I look back at those days of segregation, I never experienced having to go sit at a Black table or Black water fountain, stuff like that, I never experienced that. But when I think about passing, going through that stage in life, the segregation up to the Civil Rights Movement, then we saw the Black Power movement, and then we were getting into the technological age, and I look at who would've ever thought that we would live to see a Black president? You talked about some important social event that was the event for me and I went to both of his inaugurations. I said because this is history, and so when you look at then, you look at the technology and you look, it's like we're here at a time, some of us baby boomers, that nobody else can ever experience. The turn of the century, Y2K, the beginning of 2000.
• [00:53:37] SANDRA HARRIS: We are just a unique group that has experienced so very much in our lifetime, starting with segregation on up to having a Black president and being able to hold jobs and do the different things that we as a people are being able to do. My brother owns his own business. That never would have been possible before this day and age, that type of thing. Yes, I have to say it's just the social events, the social things that have happened and it pains me to see some of the things that we still have to experience to try to be equal. But I also realize that's a part of life.
• [00:54:30] JOYCE HUNTER: I think it's awesome that you went to both President Obama's inaugurals. Talk to me a little bit about that.
• [00:54:38] SANDRA HARRIS: The first one, it's like I have to be there. It doesn't matter how I get there. My younger brother and I, we literally flew up the day of the event, went to the inauguration, tried to see what we could say and took a flight back home that night. But I can say I was there. The second time I went with a group from Hartford Memorial Baptist Church in Detroit. They had a bus going up to the inauguration. Now, I don't do bus trips in the wintertime, so I flew up and met them there. But then we went as a group to the inauguration and then there were other activities and things that they had planned for us. I didn't get to go to any of the balls and stuff like that. But once again, I can say, hey, I was there in the crowd. I was there to see this history take place, to see the 100th anniversary of my sorority and the same with you Joyce. What an experience to be able to say that, wow, we saw the centennial for our organizations. Again, just being alive in this day and age, that was a social impact. Everything we had, like a grand celebration and one of the things that we did, we were one of the first or only, whatever Black organization that marched in the Rose Bowl, I literally walked 6.9 miles, in the Rose Bowl parade back in 2013 as a celebration of our centennial. It is like these are just experiences that have had a major impact on my life.
• [00:56:40] JOYCE HUNTER: That's wonderful Sandy. We're going to move to Part 5, which is the last part and I'm going to start with the question. Tell me how it is for you to have lived in this community. You talked about that, but is there anything else you want to add?
• [00:56:57] SANDRA HARRIS: I think there used to be saying that if you can live in Ann Arbor, you can live anywhere. There are some good things about Ann Arbor, but of course we all know there are some things that need to be changed. Certainly I feel that I got a good education here and I was exposed to a lot of cultural things. When you look at where Ann Arbor is situated, an hour from Lansing, an hour from Toledo, less than an hour from Detroit, less than an hour from Canada. There are so many opportunities and events and activities that are around that one could take part in. I feel that growing up in Ann Arbor as a matter of fact, whenever I talk about relocating to a warmer climate, people tease me and say, you're not going anywhere unless they can set Ann Arbor down in that place. This community has served me well. I have to share that when we came to Michigan, my father had relatives in three places. One was New Haven, Connecticut, the other was Inkster, Michigan, and the other is Ann Arbor and he chose Ann Arbor. Now, I don't know how things would have turned out if I'd been in Inkster can't say there's some great people that have come from Inkster, but it's like certainly being here in Ann Arbor has really helped me to become, I feel the adult and the professional that I am.
• [00:58:42] JOYCE HUNTER: Great. I'm looking at some of these other questions and you basically have answered them. But I going to ask you, what advice would you give to the younger generation?
• [00:58:54] SANDRA HARRIS: Get an education. That is the key that is going to open doors. If you want to do all the fads and different things that are going on, fine. But as an African American educator, the one thing that pains me is when I see our young African American students take on the mindset, if you carry a book around, you're acting white. If you go to class and get good grades, you're acting white. I feel like if there's a way that I can instill a sense of excellence. No, it's not that you're trying to be white, you're trying to be excellent. You're trying to learn and wish they could have a crystal ball where they could see in the future of how that education is going to help them.
• [01:00:00] JOYCE HUNTER: Well, that's some great advice Dr. Harris.
• [01:00:04] SANDRA HARRIS: Yes.
• [01:00:06] JOYCE HUNTER: I want to thank you for doing this interview it's really been a delight for me.
• [01:00:10] SANDRA HARRIS: Well, thank you, Joyce and wait a minute, and I have to say, if I talk to young people, I have to give honor to God because without him, I could be nothing or do nothing. I've worked hard and other people have helped me, but certainly I could not be where I am today without God in my life. I just have to say that to young people.
• [01:00:37] JOYCE HUNTER: That's so important.
• [01:00:38] SANDRA HARRIS: Yes. All right then.