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AADL Talks to Jack Stubbs

In this candid interview, Jack Stubbs, veteran Ann Arbor News photographer (1968-1996), paints a colorful portrait of the life of a newspaper photographer during the pre-digital era of journalism. He discusses tricks of his trade and recalls the creative ways he got the shot. Jack talks about the work of his fellow "shooters" during this period, and about some of the other News photographers he admired, notably Eck Stanger. Stubbs' assignments ranged from city and college sports to crime scenes and weather disasters, and he covered most of Washtenaw County's major events of the era, including Ann Arbor's June 1968 flood; the marches and protests at the end of the 1960s; the Coed murders and trial of John Norman Collins.


  • [00:00:05.10] AMY: Hi, this is Amy.
  • [00:00:06.43] ANDREW: And this is Andrew. And in this episode, AADL talks to veteran Ann Arbor News photographer Jack Stubbs.
  • [00:00:15.11] AMY: Jack Stubbs was a photographer for the Ann Arbor News for nearly 30 years. From the late 1960s to the mid 1990s, Jack photographed everything from weather scenes and crime scenes to U of M football games. And he was there to shoot some of the highlights of this period in Ann Arbor history, including student protests, the 1968 flood, and the trial of John Norman Collins.
  • [00:00:36.70] JACK STUBBS: Stanger, the boss, Eck. I don't know if he started the photo department, but he was there as a writer way back in the '30s. He graduated from Michigan. And then they threw him a camera and said, you're the photographer. And being German, he could be the photographer. I mean, Eck was that smart.
  • [00:00:52.65] And he had a lady, always a good-looking one, that worked and did all the negative filing. She'd come in every afternoon, like three days a week, and type all the-- da-da-da-da, file all these by card index. Then when Eck left, I don't know who the boss was, but we never again had a person help-- well, you can't shoot all day, come back, process, da-da, da-da, do negatives.
  • [00:01:19.32] So I ended up with like bushel baskets full of 35mm that I put down-- I had a flood. I would block up the drains and have a flood and get rid of all these negatives.
  • [00:01:28.32] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:01:29.98] JACK STUBBS: Say, where's your negatives from May, June, July? And I said, they're gone. They got ruined.
  • [00:01:36.41] So that's what happened. When he no longer would hire, or the company would not hire a person, all the disarray came about with negatives. The other thing was that he did four by five and two and a quarter, and that's a lot easier to deal with than five rolls of 35mm, as you well know.
  • [00:01:57.29] We'd go to a football game, shoot six, seven, eight rolls-- depending on how many drinks I had-- was anything in focus?
  • [00:02:03.70] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:02:04.64] JACK STUBBS: Not much. Now what do you do with all these negatives?
  • [00:02:09.15] And when 35mm-- Doug Fulton. I don't know if you know him, but he was a good shooter. He was kind of the environmental-- he died in Arizona five, six, seven years ago. He did a really good job with his negatives. And he stole a lot of them, I know that. Lot of them never ended up in the Ann Arbor News file.
  • [00:02:32.00] And the other thing was, when I came here in '68, we could print and sell our pictures individually. So who wants to go shoot a Huron High School tennis team picture? Well, nobody, of course.
  • [00:02:47.23] I will, I'll go! Because it was $28 in my pocket. I'd charge 'em a buck each for a print, Ann Arbor newspaper, right? So team pictures, which nobody ever wanted to shoot-- now all of a sudden became popular.
  • [00:03:02.45] And so then they came through-- Newhouse bought the whole outfit. They changed the whole-- that was the other thing. We had our own equipment. Every guy, girl, whoever, had their own photo.
  • [00:03:14.61] Newhouse said, oh no. No more. We're going to buy the equipment, and we're going to take the money for reprints. Which, you know, in a way, their business, their business. But I thought, you know.
  • [00:03:26.19] You no longer can freelance. I said, oh yeah? I mean, I can't shoot a job on Sunday afternoon, or a wedding Saturday? Well, see, so they tried to get us on it, but we shot it anyhow.
  • [00:03:39.44] ANDREW: When was that?
  • [00:03:39.66] JACK STUBBS: That's with the negative thing, that really--
  • [00:03:41.18] ANDREW: When was that, that Newhouse bought the paper?
  • [00:03:43.17] JACK STUBBS: How long? Maybe '70s, '78, maybe? Well, they bought Booth. They bought all the eight papers.
  • [00:03:55.47] And for the most part, they were very good people. My wife worked for them. She was a circulation manager in Ann Arbor, an assistant, and then she went to Jackson and was the boss.
  • [00:04:08.19] And it's a big Jewish family. All the employees basically are family. And Dick Diamond called on her. And he was married to one of the Newhouse ladies' sisters. And she just loved him to death. He was the nicest boss, you couldn't-- you know, so they were good.
  • [00:04:27.77] They treated us good. Never had to have a union, because they-- you know, you start, you get three weeks vacation. The pay was not really great to live in Ann Arbor. I could have lived in Muskegon and made the same amount of money, which is-- you know how that goes. So, but they had some policies that weren't quite-- but as photos, you know, you just kind of do around the edges.
  • [00:04:54.65] AMY: Can you talk a little bit more about Eck Stanger, as a--
  • [00:04:57.80] JACK STUBBS: Photographer?
  • [00:04:58.12] AMY: Photographer, and as a--
  • [00:04:59.82] JACK STUBBS: Yeah. Eck-- I don't know if you know John Hathaway. He was a lawyer in town. And he had a little office down by the diner, Fleetwood, next door to that building. And they had a historical club that met there every Wednesday or Thursday noon, and John Hathaway was kind of the leader.
  • [00:05:21.60] And Eck was a member of that. And Eck was very-- I don't know if he was a history major at Michigan or what he was, but he was very historical-minded in terms of Ann Arbor. I mean, he knew a lot. I mean, he was very much into sports. And he started in the '30s. I can't tell you exactly when.
  • [00:05:41.13] But he and--
  • [00:05:43.69] [SNAPS]
  • [00:05:44.39] JACK STUBBS: Eric New was next door to us, and he was the engraver. And he had one guy helping. And back then, they had to engrave every photo. It was a really big process. I don't know how the whole thing went.
  • [00:05:56.07] But like when I was there-- I could shoot a picture up to 10:30 in the morning, out on the street someplace, and they could run it in today's paper at 1:00. Where, with Eric, like, I think 8:30 in the morning was the latest they could get a photo and still get it in today's paper.
  • [00:06:14.43] So Eck and Eric were really close German buddies. Like, I'm Irish and Indian-- we were never part of the--
  • [00:06:21.85] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:06:22.64] JACK STUBBS: --the troika down the basement. I mean, it was funny as hell. We knew what was going on.
  • [00:06:28.10] But Eck was really a good-- and there, once again, he started on four by five, and then he graduated down to Rolleiflex two and a quarter. And that's as far as he went. He never shot 35.
  • [00:06:41.62] When I went there, I was just making a changeover from two and a quarter. I don't know if you know the deal, but you get much better quality out a two and a quarter Hasselblad or a Rolleiflex than you can a Nikon under most conditions. So I mean, I shot grainy stuff, and really kind of-- the quality wasn't what Eck's was.
  • [00:07:03.62] Eck's got a great photo. If you come across it-- his kid printed it-- rolling out the, what the number was I can't tell you, the hundredth B-29 or B-25 out of Willow Run, the bomber factory. And all the employees were gathered around. He got up on a roof or something, and shot 4x5-- oh, it's a gorgeous photo.
  • [00:07:25.35] I mean, normally we would never run that kind of photo, but the way Eck did it, it was like an art piece. I mean he was-- and of course, all black-and-white. And he was very good.
  • [00:07:38.13] And he was into music. So we shot a lot more entertainment, and music-- and just portraits of musicians, from Count Basie to-- I mean, I got a really nice picture of Horowitz in front of Hill. I can't tell you when it was. I shot like a whole roll of film. He was so good.
  • [00:07:58.95] And Eck would do this all the time. And he got to know these people, because Eugene Ormandy from the Philadelphia Orchestra would come here. And Eck would go up there and-- I can't think of his name, the guy who's the head of the University Musical Society-- Gail Rector.
  • [00:08:12.70] And he would call me. Jack, can you come up and make some photos for me? Blah, blah, blah. I said, yeah, sure, I'll be up in an hour or so. Well, I could go into rehearsals, and he wanted me to shoot he and Ormandy.
  • [00:08:24.74] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:08:25.00] JACK STUBBS: Gail was like that, you know, a really nice guy.
  • [00:08:27.60] And so I got to know a lot of-- and Eck had that for-- well, I got there in '68, so he must've been like 25 years ahead of me. Or 30, maybe? And then after a while we got a new editor, and we no longer did entertainment, basically.
  • [00:08:47.82] I mean, like, I could go to a Boy George concert and shoot color-- even which we didn't run color-- but I'd shoot two rolls of black-and-white, and whatnot. And they'd run a picture. And it was cool. They were open to that.
  • [00:09:00.52] And then it kind of just went by the way of whatever. It was too bad. And when Eck was gone, nobody was there to really-- you know, Eck would go against the manager. He'd just say, here, this is--And it changed.
  • [00:09:15.93] But you know, that's the way of probably all newspapers. When there's a change of government or who's-- what your intent? The guy that was there when I left, I fought with him tooth and nail.
  • [00:09:28.58] He was into exposés. Like, we get this on the University of Michigan football, or whatever. That's what his-- but I never understood that. He just such a weird outlook about people, you know? He ran the business like he was afraid of everybody. He didn't trust-- and the way he was, I could understand why.
  • [00:09:50.73] But my wife worked for his wife in Jackson. She was the publisher and a really nice lady. But he was really-- I never liked him at all. And I thought he was the worst choice for a newspaper editor that they could come up with. That's how newspapers work, though. Newhouse picked him. Why? I--
  • [00:10:11.72] So Eck was there when I came in '68. I think Fulton was-- the reason I got a job is Fulton, they moved him from the photo department upstairs, to be an environmental blah, blah, blah, blah. And he still shot, but not as much.
  • [00:10:27.68] And then Cecil came-- ex-Marine character. Really, really, really great guy. His brother's an artist. Taught at Washtenaw Community. Cecil, I think, became the boss. Can't tell you what years.
  • [00:10:44.19] And Eck died, like-- he was retired about 15 months, and he died in the '70s. His compatriot from the Jackson paper, I can't remember his name, but he must've retired about the same time Eck did. And he was a good shooter, really, and he lasted 40 years at Jackson.
  • [00:11:06.14] And they had a really good photo editor. They were offset. They ran some really great pages. I can't remember the guy's name who ran the photo thing, but they blew us out of the water all the time. I mean, they had good shooters, and they ran really good stuff, and they used the pictures good.
  • [00:11:23.81] And then he died. What was his-- he was a really nice guy. I ran into him all the time. Can't remember.
  • [00:11:28.55] But Eck-- I can't tell you parts of him.
  • [00:11:33.02] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:11:36.28] JACK STUBBS: He was a good boss. He was tough, but-- photo people are, you know, you can understand we had problems with management.
  • [00:11:42.29] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:11:45.16] JACK STUBBS: We'd tear the back off a Nikon. I want a new Nikon. Well, yours works fine.
  • [00:11:48.63] Riiiip! And throw it in the backseat of the car. Doesn't work anymore! Got dropped! Got stepped on! We were terrible.
  • [00:11:57.53] But Eck, he was really probably one of the really unappreciated photographers. And I didn't get there 'til he was probably 60-some. So he was kind of going downhill at the tail-end.
  • [00:12:11.44] He was shooting advertising. We always had a contest-- who could get the most mileage. And how to get the most mileage was we'd have to shoot houses for advertising. And then if you could get your car in the picture, somehow, then that counted for extra.
  • [00:12:27.81] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:12:29.30] JACK STUBBS: Eck would shoot houses-- I mean, he would have mileage triple what we had. How in the hell, he doesn't shoot anything for editorial? Well, he'd go around and around the block and shoot. It was a racket.
  • [00:12:42.63] And he knew everybody in photo in Michigan. I mean, The Flint Journal had a really good photo staff. Barry Edmonds, Dante Levi. And the funny part of it-- Grand Rapids was the biggest paper, and they had kind of the sleaziest photo department.
  • [00:12:57.91] And it's funny how the little pa-- like Jackson, who, there wasn't much money there, and whatnot, they had one of the best photo departments. And it hadn't anything to do with size. How the management looked at photo, What's the value of photo?
  • [00:13:12.78] And that basically-- like now, this dot-com thing is such a rag, I don't even want it in my house. I don't want it on my floor near my chair. It'll contaminate my New York Times. It's the worst piece of shit that I've ever-- how Newhouse could put their name on this is beyond me, but there must be an ulterior motive. I don't know what it is.
  • [00:13:34.71] It's sad. You know, when I left the news, as best I can recollect, there were like 1780 dailies in the United States. So I always figured there were 4,000 to 5,000 photographers at a daily newspaper, from New York Times with 25, and Long Island, and Boston-- the big papers. And now, I wonder what it is.
  • [00:14:00.05] And there's not going to be anymore-- and I was thinking about it yesterday, that daily newspapers were probably the biggest chronicle, historic value, in the United States for 100-some years. Well, the artists are drawing the news. Then they, somehow, in 1919 or 1920, they went to photos. And what is this, 2000-- it's going to be gone.
  • [00:14:25.84] You're going to get it off your TV. Hell no. What, some person sitting there, telling me about a fire in Florida? What's that? What's the value of that? Nothing.
  • [00:14:33.42] I think the other thing is, a lot of people don't value still photos, for whatever reason. I don't know why that is. Yesterday in the New York Times, they had an auction-- Sotheby's or Christie's-- for a Eugene Smith Minamata photo. I'm assuming you've seen those, of the-- and they valued it at $15,000 to $18,000. And it's probably worth $100,000. I mean, this guy was probably one of the best shooters, period.
  • [00:15:06.74] And it's all going to be gone. I mean, gone. And there's going to be nothing from how Ann Arbor changes in the next 25 years. Even if you do shoot blocks and buildings. It's a shame. But that's the business. It's (SING-SONG) oh, the electronics, oh, we can make a lot more money on the internet, and na-na-na.
  • [00:15:29.18] AMY: Do you talk with some of the other photographers about this?
  • [00:15:32.48] JACK STUBBS: I don't see them. Chase and I had a little get-together, and then it kind of dropped off. And Treml and I, I would see Treml. Treml's probably 80. He's a writer, cop writer. Good guy. We covered a lot of murders together.
  • [00:15:51.54] I think the News had some people getting together on a regular basis, But I didn't want to be part of that reminiscing. I mean, I got my own anger issues, you know. So I don't have anything, really, to do with--
  • [00:16:08.89] I have probably more to do-- well I did, until he died-- Stanley Livingston. Great shooter, great technician, smart devil. On the day Stanley died, I was going across-- I was going to go see him before I left. I was going across South Dakota or something, and Mike Wolfe called me and said, oh, I gotta tell you bad news.
  • [00:16:29.82] I said, wondering, why in the hell's he calling me? I'm in South Dakota. Stanley died this morning of a heart attack. I said, what? I just saw him three days ago!
  • [00:16:37.93] I don't know where all his stuff went. He's a really, really-- probably one of the best photographers all around. I got a great picture of him sitting at his computer, cigarette-- he looks like Dylan Thomas, sitting with his cigarette hanging out of his mouth, and he's about 80 pounds overweight.
  • [00:16:55.08] But he was a very smart-- I'm telling you, it's like a genius-- equipment, or what this lens does or doesn't do, or how you print this, and na-na-na-na. He had 8 by 10. He shot a lot of 8 by 10 stuff, and big negative stuff.
  • [00:17:10.66] And he said the computer prints five times better than anything he could have done with 8 by 10 negatives. So he never left the computer. I mean, he sat there.
  • [00:17:22.91] He did a lot of advertising, commercial-- really good stuff. I mean, he was a very talented guy. And he never got much exposure, because he was like a commercial guy. He didn't do weddings, or any of that.
  • [00:17:35.13] You know Mike Wolfe? He owned Foto 1 out on Ellsworth Road. Really nice guy. Another smart, brainy guy. Fixed all his own machines. And Nancy Wolfe is a painter. She's very good.
  • [00:17:50.65] Colleen, who worked for us, Fitzgerald. She stayed in photo. She's a good shooter. We've had a lot of good shooters, but they didn't stay with the newspaper. I was one of the few that stayed for 25 years. I got injured. Did you know I got hit?
  • [00:18:05.07] AMY: Yeah, can you tell us about that?
  • [00:18:06.45] JACK STUBBS: I got hit in a Michigan-Florida State game in '80-- the only time we ever played Florida State. '89. First quarter, Harbaugh was the quarterback.
  • [00:18:17.19] We had a stripe, like this, where you could go up this far to the field, but you couldn't go inside that. And you had to kneel down, because the people behind you-- now they got a wall, so now you can stand up shoot. And they used to have the band chairs right on the field. And that day, the chairs were there, but nobody was in 'em.
  • [00:18:39.50] So Harbaugh pitched out to this guy-- I can't remember his name-- a big back. And he turned, he came right at me. And I had nowhere to go, really.
  • [00:18:48.26] By the time I got up, the two backs from Florida, who I didn't see coming from the left, hit me on the left side. And split my kneecap in half-- that's how hard they hit. Broke my wrist like in three places, and tore my rotor cuff. I know it.
  • [00:19:03.90] So that was the first quarter, and I went off on a stretcher, and that was the end of that. What they kept doing-- Louis Meeks at orthopedic surgery-- is they take out pieces of bone, not all of it at once. Why, I don't know. They did the little scope thing.
  • [00:19:21.65] But then the kneecap had to come out altogether. So they make a big cut, like a shark bite. So I had a really hard time walking.
  • [00:19:29.45] And the News got really crappy. And I had to get a lawyer, because they were treating me like I was lying to them. Which I never did. I told them everything right up front.
  • [00:19:42.46] Well, you're going to come in at 6:00 in the morning and you're going to do all the computer stuff. And I said, I never even worked on computer. What the hell are you talking about? I don't know the first thing about-- you know, I took typing like 40 years ago.
  • [00:19:52.56] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:19:54.42] JACK STUBBS: So I had to get a lawyer. And I got a really good one, finally. Finally. Mr. Cooper, can't remember his first name. Really cool guy. He looks like an old Yalie lawyer from way back. An old sweatshirt, tussled hair, papers stacked all over.
  • [00:20:09.31] Jack. Sit down. Tell me your sad tale.
  • [00:20:12.30] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:20:14.06] JACK STUBBS: So he subpoenaed all my medical stuff, and I got out on a disability.
  • [00:20:17.68] Which I found out later-- this is ironic-- a disability retirement from the News was less than a regular retirement for the time I had in. And I thought, well, I'm going to get out here one way or the other. So I'm going to take a disability retirement. And that's what I did.
  • [00:20:35.71] And I really couldn't do the job. I really couldn't walk. I told 'em, I'll do advertising. I'll doing inside stuff. I'll do heads. You know, we do heads in the studio.
  • [00:20:44.14] Oh, no, oh no, you're going to do whatever we need. I said, I'm not going down I-94 to a fatal, walk a mile and a half because they blocked the highway. I can't do that. So we just separated. I want to say, I must have lasted four years after the accident. So that would have been '93.
  • [00:21:01.28] I think I get $542 a month. It's like, I got a 12-year-old daughter to send to college, for Christ's sakes. What am I gonna-- $542?! That's what-- newspapers were always underpaid. They were always less-than, because they knew they could get people to work for them for free.
  • [00:21:19.85] Because they were fun. They knew that. You'd leave, and they'd have three people there knocking on the door to get a job.
  • [00:21:28.83] The money was--you never did it for the money. That's why we freelance. I had four kids, you know, going to wherever, whatever schools. And so we all freelanced.
  • [00:21:39.24] I mean, we'd get a call out of nowhere. Can you do a photo of a baba-baba? I said, I can do it on lunch hour. $100. OK. I ran so many jobs out of there. It's like I had a little commercial photography place. I didn't tell them. They never told-- I shot a wedding last Saturday. Ba-ba-ba. I mean, we did weddings for $400. Now they get $2,300 to shoot a black-and-white wedding. It's like, I missed out.
  • [00:22:04.60] But I had an attitude, though, because I fought with Petykiewicz, the editor. I mean, he would bring in the photo editor, him, the publisher, and this other guy, in all white shirts and ties. They'd be sitting over there, and there was me and my lawyer. I never brought my lawyer to the paper, but I could get him on the phone if I needed him.
  • [00:22:24.59] And they would say, this is what you're going to do. We got a new job description. They kept sending me all over for evaluations. They were all the same. This man is able to work maybe 15, 20 hours a week on a limited basis. Blah, blah, blah.
  • [00:22:38.20] Oh, no, no. Oh, no. This is what you're-- you're going to be the photo janitor. I said, up yours. I got up and walked out. I said, I'll see you guys later. You got me mixed up. You got the wrong person. I mean, that's how they treated me.
  • [00:22:50.93] Called my lawyer. David-- David Cooper. David, what do I do? He said, keep your mouth shut.
  • [00:22:56.64] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:22:57.21] JACK STUBBS: Keep your mouth shut.
  • [00:22:59.27] So we went round and round. Then, finally, I got out. It was a good thing. It was good for them, and was good for me.
  • [00:23:06.12] And the News photo, from what I saw over the years, they went through a lot of changes, due partly to technology, and partly, they hired a lot of bad people. A lot of bad hires that I thought, that never really allowed the photo department to make the transitions into the modern world, until Lon Horwerdel and the late guys came in. Warren, that group.
  • [00:23:35.35] They got a photo editor that-- I never thought they really utilized those people either. I mean, that's how we are, though. You never think they're utilized the way they should be for the talent they've got. I mean, to go out and shoot a bag of dog food for an ad-- they just never utilized their time, you know, and it was really sad.
  • [00:23:55.59] But at the end, then the electronics took over. The electronic darkroom. Da-da-da-da. No more printing. So it all changed. And I was really glad that I could get out.
  • [00:24:06.45] I mean, I felt bad for a while, because I'd been in photo thirty-some, 33 years, almost, in different papers. And then all of a sudden you don't have a job. You're not part of a newspaper. It was like-- it was hard. It was really hard.
  • [00:24:20.60] Then later on, after a year or two-- Oh, the other thing I didn't tell you. I quit drinking in there. All the time, like before I would cover a football game-- I had the most seniority, so what they would do is say, here's your assignments. I got Eastern Michigan and Middleville, Kentucky. We've got ba-ba, and we've got Michigan at 1 o'clock. I said, I'll take Michigan at 1 o'clock. And I'd go to the Wonder Bar.
  • [00:24:44.86] Well, you weren't here when the Wonder Bar was on 4th Ave. It was like a UN bar, where we had all Black guys from Clint's, the pool hall, come over. And it was really great.
  • [00:24:56.77] I mean, fights go on. You could get any color television you wanted out of there. What do you want? You want a 24-inch? A 32-inch? They'd bring in racks of clothes from Briarwood. On a rack! In the plastic! Well, they stole them off the truck. Well what you got? You want a 42-short?
  • [00:25:15.33] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:25:17.21] JACK STUBBS: The cops were right around the corner! I mean, they knew what was going on. Every once in a while, the cops would raid it, you know. Oh, god, it was a great place.
  • [00:25:25.87] And I lived there, basically, because I'd go there on lunch hour, drink six, seven, beers, go back to work. Get in arguments all the time, have to-- I had to apologize to almost everybody there because I was drinking all the time. And it was insane.
  • [00:25:39.80] But I quit drinking about two years before I got hit. I was trying to think of why I quit. I can't remember why. But I was sober two or three years when I got hit, I think. I think. Because now I got 27 years next week.
  • [00:25:54.08] It was really strange. But see, if 'd have done a blood thing at U Hospital when they hauled me up on a stretcher, and I had 0.196 or whatever it was, I'd have been screwed. Because you could have got out of the way if you were sober. But it never came up.
  • [00:26:08.87] So I was in the clear. So I lucked out, really. I mean, and I did try to do what the doctors told me to do, whereas if I was still drinking, you know, go to hell. A lot of newspaper people that I hung out with, the boozers, they're going home? It's only 8 o'clock! We just got started.
  • [00:26:26.77] So you hang with the-- and we had a crowd at the paper that were-- and every paper I was at was the same deal. I mean, where I started, I started at a small paper up north, where I grew up, Manistee. It was owned by the Batdorffs. They owned the Traverse City "Wretched Eagle," Big Rapids Pioneer, Cheboygan, Charlevoix. I don't know what.
  • [00:26:51.07] A guy there-- I got a photo job. I never developed a roll of film in my life. I never made a print. I just said, oh, yeah, I know how to do that shit. I didn't know any of it.
  • [00:27:01.21] But I met the guy in advertising that-- Bill Henry-- would come back at night and help me learn how to print. I mean, I went through-- you know, you just don't walk in there and start making really nice negatives and make really great prints. And I wasted a lot.
  • [00:27:15.43] But that's how I learned, on the job. It was cool. I was there two years, I think. $75 a week for six days a week. My take-home with $55.35 for six days. So that's-- I mean, it's cool because I lived on it. I didn't pay anybody rent. I didn't pay-- pulled my car out of the driveway.
  • [00:27:37.13] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:27:41.05] JACK STUBBS: But I stayed in photo 32 years, I think. And I had a great time. I mean, I absolutely-- you know what it was? I was thinking about it. It's like an education.
  • [00:27:51.29] Because here in Ann Arbor-- in Battle Creek, it was like, that was little Chicago. That was a train yard, a stockyard, a rough town. But here, when I came here, it was like, you got to meet and know so many--
  • [00:28:04.42] Schembechler came the same year I did, right in that neighborhood, an and I got to know him. Make the damn photo! We gotta get the hell outta here! We got work to do! That's how he'd treat me. And it was funnier than hell. I had a good time.
  • [00:28:23.07] And Ann Arbor was really, it was a great town, I mean, for me. Bar was right down around the corner. I knew a lot of cops. And I couldn't have gone to a better place.
  • [00:28:34.66] But I came here to stay two years, because I wanted a job with AP. Because I would run into Adams every once in a while, and I thought, I'd like to get a job with AP. Go all over, blah, blah, blah. They offered me a job. I went to New York with some photos, you know ba-ba-ba. Oh, yeah, you know. They didn't throw 'em aside.
  • [00:28:56.00] They called me, though. We got a job in Atlanta for you. Yeah? They were union, I think. I can't remember.
  • [00:29:04.30] But I called the guys in Detroit, and I said, listen. I knew one of 'em real well, crazy guy from Jersey. What about-- they offered me a job in Atlanta. He said, don't go.
  • [00:29:15.55] I said, why not? He said, because you know what it is? It's half desk and half photo. You get on a desk, you won't get off.
  • [00:29:23.69] What do you mean? You'll be pigeonholed. That's what you'll be, is a desk person. You won't be a photographer. I said, really? I said, they didn't tell me that. Of course not!
  • [00:29:32.34] AMY: So outside of the time that you got hit--
  • [00:29:35.59] JACK STUBBS: Yeah.
  • [00:29:35.89] AMY: What are your most memorable photo shoot?
  • [00:29:37.82] JACK STUBBS: I made some good football pictures. Not football, per se, but what happened around it. One was when the day that the running back--
  • [00:29:46.42] [SNAPS FINGERS]
  • [00:29:46.80] JACK STUBBS: His brother played for the Giants-- cool guy. Against Wisconsin, he gained, I think, over 400 yards. It was like up to that time, it was most yards gained by a single player in the Big 10.
  • [00:30:01.29] And he was walking off-- he didn't have a helmet on. He got hit hard and the helmet wen went flying. He's carrying his shoe. He just looked like a warrior, you know. It was a really cool photo. I think it's down in the field.
  • [00:30:13.00] And then I made some good Woody pictures. Because Woody and Bo, they were showmen. And it was great. I mean, it was absolutely the best thing.
  • [00:30:21.26] Woody was really good at it, too. So was Bo, but not as good as Woody. Bo played for Woody. But he wasn't as good as Woody was.
  • [00:30:28.61] And Woody made great photos. I mean, my dad used to come down, and you could have a sideline writer with you. So from negatives 22 to 30, 32, what happened, ba ba. And my dad would write it down. And then we'd move.
  • [00:30:43.72] My dad was probably in his 70s. And, oh, he loved it. He was up north. And we could go any place on the field. It wasn't like where you could only go through the Michigan end zone. You can't go around the Ohio State side. Well, back then, you could go wherever you want to go.
  • [00:31:00.68] I mean, I would be standing right in with all the Ohio State players, my dad's right with me, and I don't know if you ever saw a picture-- I got a great picture of Woody throwing the phone. Well, he's only like from here to that corner from me.
  • [00:31:14.17] And Michigan intercepted, and he turns around, he throws the phone, and he comes right next to me, and slugs the sound man, from ABC or wherever he was, right in the stomach. Just hauls off and clunks him, right-- and my dad said, it's a good thing that so-and-so didn't slug me. He said, I'd-a flattened 'im.
  • [00:31:34.73] I said, oh my God, my dad! Gonna flatten old Woody on the sideline. We'll never get back in here! Oh, it was hilarious.
  • [00:31:44.39] I don't know. You know what? The picture I gave John is a lot of what I did back then. I did a lot of nature, kind of landscape, nature stuff. Because back then, Jeff Frank was the city editor. And he always was looking for something for today's paper. They always wanted to use a local photo on today's paper.
  • [00:32:01.09] Well, a lot of times, they never had one. So you'd have to go out in the morning and make something for today. Not an assignment. Drive around, find something, whatever. Somebody hopefully sober, somebody not in the gutter. For today's paper.
  • [00:32:15.78] So I did a lot of weather-related photos. And you kind of got to know where to go to look, that something would produce something. You can't go on school grounds. You can't do-- there's a lot of stuff you can't do.
  • [00:32:33.05] You can't stop kids in a park. You can't go over and write their names down. So there's a lot of stuff you've got to be careful of who, and what, and where. Which is cool.
  • [00:32:42.40] But up north, I would go with the conservation officer. I would go with the cops. Up north was a lot different, where I started. So I made a lot of real-- I would go with the Coast Guard.
  • [00:32:55.59] Called the Coast Guard station. What's going on? Is the buoy-tender in yet? Well, he'll be in tomorrow. Come on down, we'll put you on the boat.
  • [00:33:02.73] So I'd go with them, setting buoys in the big river and off the channel. So there was a lot of really cool stuff that you-- you could go do whatever. They never checked your hours.
  • [00:33:14.58] But you had to do what they-- that was the other thing. You had to do what they sent across. Eck could throw the assignments down on your desk, and that's what you had. You never knew where, how long, where you're going.
  • [00:33:24.75] Eck, I can't do these five in a row. Come on! Well, do the best you can. Oh, yeah. No. Five assignments, all over, wherever. We did everything. Car wrecks.
  • [00:33:36.95] The other thing I didn't tell you about, I made a lot of money off, is when they had the floods here, just after I got here, they washed out the railroad. At Dixboro they washed out the railroad, they washed out the dam. So we'd go shoot everything, right? And the railroad would call-- you got any photos? Yeah, we got a package.
  • [00:33:53.73] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:33:56.45] JACK STUBBS: So-- you become the local disaster photog--
  • [00:34:01.74] The thing I really liked doing was shooting car races. I mean, I went down to the Grand Prix races in Detroit on my own. I finagled a pass.
  • [00:34:10.22] And I ran into a buddy of mine from-- Konietzko. Lothar Konietzko. He was a Luftwaffe pilot in World War II. He got shot down. He was 18 years old when he got shot down, taken prisoner in the US. He came back over here as a photographer.
  • [00:34:25.05] He was a really cool guy. He knew everybody. Everybody in the breweries.
  • [00:34:30.28] I know the guy that's got that apartment, three-story apartment, right on the end of the track. We got to get around there, and we'll go up. And he'll let me in for 15 minutes. You come out with me.
  • [00:34:44.29] Well right as it lined up, with the cars coming down here to make the turn was the [? Rensen ?] and everything lined up perfect. I mean, you couldn't have-- you could've stayed there three weeks and never come up with a better spot. And you shoot a roll, and then you get the heck out.
  • [00:34:59.82] We had limited access to a lot of stuff here, whether a presidential person, or Morris Udall, or whoever came to town, because we were the local paper. We would get in, but not like the regular press people. So it's really hard to separate what pictures do you--
  • [00:35:18.06] Oh, I took my buddies. I had just 22-foot sailboat and we went to the America's Cup. And I asked them if I could get three days off to go to Rhode Island, go to the America's Cup. For what? I said, I'll go shoot pictures.
  • [00:35:30.46] Well, I never filed for press credentials or nothing, right? So I go down there at the Navy shipyard, driving rain-- and I knew that cutter was going out on the race course, 35 miles out, 25 miles.
  • [00:35:47.09] Commander. Yeah, whaddaya want? I said, what's my chances of getting aboard the boat? He said, you got a pass? And I said, well, not really. He said, I gotta go check with somebody.
  • [00:35:59.26] So he comes back and he says-- I'm soaking wet, right? He said, yeah, come on aboard. Go get yourself a cup of coffee. Well, what it was, was that was the Vigilant. That boat was the boat that kept every other boat back from the race course.
  • [00:36:12.34] Well the Australians-- Dane Patty, and Ted Turner was racing something-- they'd come and cut right under the bow of the-- I mean, it was really foggy and all, but they came so-- if you get really cool stuff. It was great fun.
  • [00:36:29.23] And they used the picture page, and Dave Bishop, I think he gave me a bonus of $50. We stayed on my boat, the 22-foot Catalina. We had a six-horse Johnson. We went like 30 miles out in the ocean.
  • [00:36:42.16] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:36:43.59] JACK STUBBS: It was great fun. Pictures weren't worth a hill of beans, but back then, we could do that.
  • [00:36:51.72] Then up north-- it didn't get down this far, but up north, they had guys calling you at 7 o'clock Sunday morning. Didn't know if they were sober. We got this fish! Yeah? Well, we want you to take a picture of our fish!
  • [00:37:05.53] I'd say, I don't do fish on Sunday morning.
  • [00:37:07.91] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:37:10.16] JACK STUBBS: Well, they'd bring this fish over, and we'd run pictures of fish and deer and all kinds of stupid-- it was part of the game. But as you got down here, that all went out the window.
  • [00:37:20.61] But we did so many football games. Like in Ann Arbor, we would do two A games on Friday night, U Michigan or Eastern Saturday, and Catholic schools on Sunday. So you could do five, six games on a weekend. And they'd run photos. But it got so repetitious.
  • [00:37:39.23] Lothar, one time, he wanted to go up north deer hunting. Wayne Associated Newspapers, that's who he worked for. So he could get going early Friday night, he went back in last year's photos and he printed--
  • [00:37:51.56] [LAUGHS]
  • [00:37:53.35] JACK STUBBS: The numbers were fairly obscured, and he would print these and turn 'em in as-- that's the game against--
  • [00:37:59.76] AMY: [LAUGHS]
  • [00:38:03.98] JACK STUBBS: Stanger, though. Eck had the best photo stories. They used to have-- I don't know if it was a national cat show. It was something like the dogs in Chicago.
  • [00:38:13.66] It was like 90 degrees, and they brought the prize-winning cat, a white angora cat, up to the 20th floor. And they had all the windows open because it was so hot. Yeah. You got the picture.
  • [00:38:27.48] And they set the cat on the table, and the guy's around, and the guy's shooting, I think, flash powder. Or big bulbs. They had big Press 25s. You could light up this-- boom! Boom! Boom! All these lights go off and what not. And they look, and the cat's gone.
  • [00:38:42.94] ANDREW: [LAUGHS]
  • [00:38:43.83] JACK STUBBS: They said, where's the cat? He said, see that little white mess?
  • [00:38:48.41] [ALL LAUGH]
  • [00:38:51.11] JACK STUBBS: That's Toby. Right out the--
  • [00:38:54.07] [ALL LAUGH]
  • [00:38:56.49] ANDREW: Was it part of your job to listen to the police scanner for when fires and wrecks and things like that? Or did somebody call you--
  • [00:39:02.15] JACK STUBBS: We had one in the car. I had a Volkswagen. Always had Volkswagens. And sometimes it worked. Sometimes it didn't.
  • [00:39:11.32] And they got to where they'd call me at the bar. We got an explosion on north campus! So call somebody else! I'm busy!
  • [00:39:19.86] ANDREW: Would you just get calls all hours of the night?
  • [00:39:22.72] JACK STUBBS: Oh, yeah.
  • [00:39:22.85] ANDREW: And you'd just have to run out and make it to a scene?
  • [00:39:24.91] JACK STUBBS: Yeah. We got a big fire going in Ypsilanti, 2 o'clock in the morning. It's freezing like hell. No heater in the car. Go to Ypsilanti, shoot a house fire, and they wouldn't even run it, because whatever.
  • [00:39:38.00] There was a big fire down here by the Michigan golf course. Across the street were big petroleum storage areas, and they caught fire. I don't know how. I mean, you could see the flames like-- they had all the streets blocked off, so you can't get anywhere near it.
  • [00:39:51.19] So we drove up on the Michigan golf course, on the backside, and went all the way across the golf course, snuck down through these yards, and damn German shepherds were like gonna kill us. I got great photos. And flames flying out-- it was all black-and-white, but.
  • [00:40:07.23] I mean, the cops in Ann Arbor, they were fairly lenient. I mean, they'd went out of their way to help you if they could. Treml knew everybody.
  • [00:40:17.70] ANDREW: So what percentage of the photos you had to shoot were assignments versus on-the-spot things versus free-shooting?
  • [00:40:24.32] JACK STUBBS: Yeah. That's-- later on, it was mostly assignments. But they couldn't assign a photo for tomorrow's paper, because they don't know what's out-- those guys never left the building. So a lot of it was, go out and come back with something. It was really hard. Maybe 50-50? Something in that neighborhood?
  • [00:40:50.75] The assigned photos were kind of stupid. I mean, it's like they run on the dot-com now. Head shots. They'd run a full page of basically head shots.
  • [00:40:58.29] I said, OK, here's what we're going to do. Somehow or other, we're going to run a head shot of every person in Ann Arbor, and run 'em in two days of newspapers. Like graduation photos.
  • [00:41:08.27] And then we never have to do that again! Because they're are all in the paper. They're stupid as all get-out.
  • [00:41:13.90] And now, here they are, what, 2011? They're doing to the same thing! Full page! You mean there's nothing worthwhile to shoot in Ann Arbor, other than the heads of kids at some park or team photos?
  • [00:41:27.08] How many softball team photos can you do? And why? Who cares? His mother, maybe. But the good stuff outweighed the stupid stuff, I guess, is how to shake it out.
  • [00:41:42.04] AMY: Fairly soon after you came, you were able to shoot stories about the Michigan Murders. You were also here-- I mean, that was a pretty--
  • [00:41:49.50] JACK STUBBS: Yeah. The Viet Nam war protest?
  • [00:41:52.05] AMY: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about your memories of that?
  • [00:41:55.20] JACK STUBBS: Well we would do march photos. Because every noon hour, they had a march. I mean, right down Main Street. I look back at some of them,and what amazes me is the clothes. The baggy-- it's so different than today. I mean, I don't even know if they have a march in Ann Arbor anymore. For anything.
  • [00:42:18.82] City Council was very rambunctious then. The Rainbow People's Party was getting elected. John Sinclair, over on Hill Street. It was really something. The '60s, the 70s.
  • [00:42:34.39] There was a lot of stuff. From natural disasters to government-- I think SDS was formed here before that time, but I mean, that was kind of the way Ann Arbor was then. Kind of.
  • [00:42:51.98] Eck always said, this town's a lot more conservative than what you give it credit for. And then later on, I agreed with him. It's like, yeah. It's not as liberal as what they like to think.
  • [00:43:02.83] I was in Battle Creek when Martin Luther-- that's right, when he got shot, was right in that time, of '68. I came here in June. 90 degrees, oh, god. It was terrible.
  • [00:43:17.12] They didn't make great photos, but it was still something. The cops would surround City Hall, and the sheriff's department-- they were all armed. And they'd put dogs at you. Get them! Get 'em! Get 'em! It was like, get that damn dog outta here.
  • [00:43:35.03] We always had two photographers. You'd go with another guy. Because he'd shoot the picture when they put the dog on you. Really, you had to. Because the cops were-- there was big stuff going on.
  • [00:43:45.34] And I don't remember, so much, burning cars. But the students, they had backbone, man. They got up against-- it was good.
  • [00:43:55.89] Now it's like, whatever happened to people protesting? I was thinking about the Afghanistan war the other day. I read the column everyday, Sergeant So-and-so.
  • [00:44:05.33] And when they said a sergeant, I know he's going to be 33-year-old, been in the military 15 years, shot, blah, blah, blah, blah. Let alone two guys, 19, 22, from San Jose. Nobody says a word. It's just like, what the hell ever happened?
  • [00:44:24.19] I was listening this morning-- now they're backsliding on when they're going to get out of Afghanistan. Now they're kind of pushing it back. And I'm thinking, I don't know. Something's wrong here.
  • [00:44:35.74] See, back then, too, like the demonstrations and the marches? The cops would come around wanting photos. Subversive--
  • [00:44:42.16] ANDREW: Sure. Yeah.
  • [00:44:42.67] JACK STUBBS: The Michigan state police subversive-- they would want photos. Were you at such? Yeah, I was there. Can we see your negatives? No. Can you make us some prints? No.
  • [00:44:51.21] ANDREW: [LAUGHS]
  • [00:44:51.55] JACK STUBBS: Are you serious? All of a sudden, we're state police subversive squad? And that's the way it was. I mean, there was no-- but that's what I liked about it, too, is that it's not a legit, regimented, go here, sit there, turn out this. Uh-uh.
  • [00:45:06.99] Some days-- it was like, we had a big fire going, down in Saline. I mean, you could see the smoke, walking down the street in Ann Arbor. It look like Saline was burning.
  • [00:45:16.68] And so the boss was Adaline Adams. She was one of the better photo bosses, really. And she was a-- what the heck was she? She wasn't-- they ran out of people to make photo bosses, so they made her the photo boss.
  • [00:45:32.20] Go see if you can go down there and find out what's going on. So I'm going down State Street, and the closer I get, I'm saying, I'm going to go to the airport and see if there's anybody.
  • [00:45:42.46] I talked to this young kid. I said, how about you take me up in that Cessna over there. I said, are you a pilot?
  • [00:45:49.99] He said, yeah. I didn't ask him to show the paperwork. I said, I want to go shoot a picture of that fire. Man, he flew around, we got a great pictures of the fire, and I'm back on the ground going back to the newspaper in 40 minutes. And I got all these pictures.
  • [00:46:06.15] How'd you do that? I said, I lucked out. I went to the airport. I met this kid. Who was he? Did he charge you? No, he just took me in the plane, and away we went.
  • [00:46:16.92] So the whole job was kind of informal. Like I did most of the John Norman Collins murders. And when he went to trial, I did most of that. And I sold shit to Bunte Illustrated in Germany.
  • [00:46:32.00] You wouldn't believe-- I had a lot of markets that did-- Jack, have you got anything from the latest trial? Yeah, I'll send you a half a dozen photos. $250, you take 'em. Or leave 'em. No arbitration here.
  • [00:46:45.25] Treml and I went to Jackson Prison and interviewed Collins. We were there like two hours. And he's sitting right where you are. He's banging the table, I didn't do that, I didn't do this. John, you're here for a reason, OK?
  • [00:46:57.96] And we shot all these pictures of him. And we got all done, and he wouldn't sign the release. He said, I'm not signing no damn-- my picture's going to end up on a soup can.
  • [00:47:07.85] I said, no, John, come on. Treml just sat there and he was waiting. So I finally convinced him. The warden came in with some papers, and I said get John to sign, he's ready to sign this. It took forever to convince him, but he finally signed them, though.
  • [00:47:21.60] And yeah, we put it on the wire as soon as we got back to Ann Arbor, and everybody from here to wherever-- because nobody had gotten a prison interview with him. Treml was the first one. Or maybe the only one.
  • [00:47:34.15] And it was pretty weird, this guy, just--
  • [00:47:41.11] [SIGH]
  • [00:47:41.42] JACK STUBBS: Yeah. Especially since seeing five or six or eight of the bodies, and this guy sitting right there. It's bizarre.
  • [00:47:49.62] The murders were very, very scary. I had two daughters in high school at the time, and some of the bodies were found near our house. This went on and on and on.
  • [00:48:04.44] I mean, I look at it like, I came into newspapers at the exactly right time and stayed exactly just long enough. So the injury was, like-- as much as I pissed and moaned about it, it was actually a pretty good thing.
  • [00:48:17.97] Because I got out-- well, when I got out, I started building boats because I was sitting around going nuts. I don't drink anymore. Now what am I going to do with all this?
  • [00:48:29.12] So my buddy, he helped me get started. I forget what boat-- we built little boats. I built a couple fish boats. Then I built a big 32-foot sailboat to go to Ireland.
  • [00:48:41.14] Now I've been building kayaks and fishing boats for 15 years. And I got 13 boats in the yard. And she says, the day you die, I'm calling every one of your kids to get the hell out here and take a boat out of the yard. I said, boy, that's really a cool memorial! That shows you what you think of my artistic endeavors!
  • [00:49:06.32] I hadn't been able to drive. I got ID'd-- I've been passing out for two years. Heart stuff, whatever. Can't ID it. They don't know why. Ba-ba. Then it got closer and closer. Two in a week-- no driving. You're done. Six months. What?
  • [00:49:25.19] So I start wearing a heart monitor. They got something off the heart monitor week ago Monday, yesterday. Go to Saint Joe Emergency now. Why? I've been having this for two years, and now I'm going to Saint Joe Emergency now, at dinnertime? Yeah. Now.
  • [00:49:40.31] So I go there, and what happened was, this lady at Michigan Heart picked up-- I don't know where she got it, off the tape or whatever the monitor showed. My heart was slowing down and stopping. 3.7. 4.2. Right. Stopping. That's the blackouts.
  • [00:49:59.37] I sat there 'til Tuesday morning, I got some doctors-- no. You need a pacemaker. No, I already had bypass surgery. No, you need a pacemaker. Your heart is stopping. You can't lift anything, you can't drive, you can't.
  • [00:50:14.16] But the doctor who was standing alongside my gurney before I went down the hall, he says-- I said, what about golf? No golf, five weeks. So I'm gonna be over.
  • [00:50:26.43] What about driving? My wife wasn't there. She was out in the hall. Seven days. I said, you know, if you weren't so ugly, I'd give you kiss. Seven days, man, he went from six months!
  • [00:50:38.92] I got my little red car. First time I've driven since. We live north of Chelsea, North Lake, out in the woods. To not drive, you're--
  • [00:50:48.03] I tell my wife, and I bitch at her, 'cause you're a passenger in a car, it is totally different than driving. And, you say one more word to me, you're not going to have one driver. You're not going to have any drivers!
  • [00:51:01.49] So we got a baby now. And because, due to digital-- this is a plus for digital-- I have like seven boxes of photos. Every time this kid moves. She was washing her mom's car, and she got her diapers on, and she's got a big mop, and she's washing the car. It was the greatest photo. I got boxes and boxes, because you go down to CVS, you can make 78 prints for $6. And you can go get 20 by 30 blow-ups.
  • [00:51:32.60] We got one made the other day on canvas. Did you ever do that? You send it to this company in Kansas or someplace. I knew where this dandelion field was. I said, Carrie, when you come down here next week, give me the baby. We're going to shoot in this dandelion field.
  • [00:51:47.17] And she was just barely able to stand on her own. So I said, just get her balanced enough, and then get the heck out of the way. It was a really cool picture. So Sandy sent it in the other day and got a-- oh, it's like this. And we took it to Pictures Plus, and they wrapped it. It's really cool.
  • [00:52:03.71] But that's where photo's gone. Everybody's got-- This year's Christmas card, I already got it made. You ever go by Zingerman's, at Christmas time, with that big tree? That they light up the whole tree?
  • [00:52:17.36] I took a tripod down there one night before Christmas this year. I said, that's next year's. And I shot-- well, what it did, it made all the light around it stars. It's really cool. You shoot through screens. My boss showed me how to do it.
  • [00:52:31.36] I stopped at the hardware on Dexter and bought these 12-inch screens, screen-door screen. And you put it in front of the lens, and as you turn it, it makes stars. You ever do it?
  • [00:52:41.23] AMY: I haven't done that.
  • [00:52:41.93] JACK STUBBS: Oh, it's cool! But you gotta put the camera on a tripod, because I do it-- 10-second exposure, whatever, who cares? Cars? And you just turn it, and you get all these star patterns? Oh, it's cool.
  • [00:52:53.71] But Zingerman's, of course, they don't probably-- they don't celebrate Christmas. But who cares? It's a nice photo.
  • [00:53:05.67] ANDREW: To see some of Jack Stubbs's photos for the Ann Arbor News, go to
  • [00:53:15.36] AMY: Music for this episode has been from the score to The Back Page, composed and performed by Steven Ball, available at
  • [00:53:28.39] ANDREW: "AADL Talks to Jack Stubbs" has been a production of the Ann Arbor District Library.
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Length: 00:53:46

Copyright: Creative Commons (Attribution, Non-Commercial, Share-alike)

Rights Held by: Ann Arbor District Library


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